Victorian Miners Right information and questions

[Prospector B]

Thanks Lynnie for keeping us informed, you are doing a fantastic job!

 

[Guest]

No refunds. I know someone who purchased one on the 29th of December. You reckon he isn't pi^#$%ed. The interesting thing with all these posts is that the response from PMAV officers is about Miners Rights. Pay $17.20 for 10 years is great, but no mention of what will happen to prospecting access and equipment use.
Lynnie, I did send an email to Rita and as I previously stated, I did not get the courtesy of a reply. I have been in this game for many many years. I appreciate your enthusiasm but I have seen so many battles lost, and so few won that we need to take a different approach. I am absolutely certain that the PMAV is doing all they can but the direction and approach they take will never compete against a political party. We need to form a Prospectors Party, and get as many people to stand as possible in their electorates .. We need to show the greens that they won't have it all their own way. Get the farmers, cattlemen, 4x4 groups and others to support us and we have some chance to make a difference. I have the greatest respect for the PMAV but have not been a member for 20 years now because I don't believe the direction they are taking is the right one, and I do not for a second think we have a chance of winning anything with this approach. I personally have to much to lose to see our rights taken from us and will continue in my endeavours to form a political party that truly represents the interests of all prospectors and small scale miners and not just detector operators in the Golden Triangle. I am absolutely happy to discuss this with the PMAV President but she needs to contact me. She will know who I am.

 

[Goldtarget]

Hey Lynnie, I was referring to the candidate that was intending to stand for the seat in the past state election, nothing to do with Rita, I reread what I wrote which I thought was clear so I apologize if I caused confusion, I'm a straight shooter and would have said as much if that was the case. I will reiterate I have no vested interest in giving the pmav a bash, I expressed an opinion based on my experiences. I think it best not to add any further comments based upon what has followed, on some level after I posted I knew it would upset someone, and it has to the point where someone has gone past the point of reason and can't grasp it has been a fairly balanced discussion (not argument or attack) about prospecting rights.

 

[dwt]

The haul truck driver says to the service crewman "if I didn't haul dirt you wouldn't have your job" the service crewman says to the air legger " if I didn't run your services you wouldn't be bolt bore firing" the air legger says to the bogger operator " if I didn't bolt bore fire you couldn't bog dirt you wouldn't have your job" the bogger operator says to the haul truck driver "if I didn't load your truck you wouldn't have your job" and around we go again!!!
The PMAV wouldn't exist without its members, and the members wouldn't have backing and support without the PMAV, I really don't give a sh#t who is standing up for us in parliament or on the platform at a get together, it's the best person for the job, that's what we need, wether that be Rita, Puddler Bill, or someone sitting in the background who decides to jump up and say "I'm your man"
My hats off to the men and women who donate they're time in voluntary positions around our great hobby, they do a great thing I'm not capable of, hence why others and myself are paying members.
let's keep it together and band as a team, not find reasons to start up a riot directed at those who enjoy the same thing, professionally or hobbyest, we're all paddling the same boat

 

[Guest]

Pete, You need to take your happy pills mate. No need for name calling, we are not a pack of whingers, we are having a vigorous conversation about a very serious matter. I also said the PMAV is doing a great job, but they need to go in a different direction. No one has said they don't work hard, so maybe you need to read the posts again as you seem to have missed the point.
You say the PMAV was formed 20-30 years ago, and you are right. I was a member and office bearer back then.
However, when you look at the simple hard facts there have been very few wins for prospectors. Its because over the years there has been the constant call to sign petitions. Mate, they went out of fashion in the sixties.
I also find it particularly disturbing when a local PMAV branch can't even get their crap together to write a submission to VEAC about something that will directly affect them.
The point I am trying to make, and I will say it again is that we are fighting a well oiled political machine known as the Victorian National Parks Association. Have a look at their very professional website. Look at the headings, particularly the one about prospecting, and then look at the supporters, sponsors, and patrons. Then ask yourself, how will a bunch of petitions beat them.
You said the following "So stop whinging and get off your butts and ask the PMAV how you can help." Well again, if you had read the posts PROPERLY, you would have seen where I clearly said that I sent an email to the PMAV President, after the AGM, and I am yet to see a response.
Maybe I am misguided here as I live in the North East of the State which is the home of alluvial and hard rock prospecting and mining. All I am seeing is support for detector operators in the Golden Triangle.
The North East branch of the PMAV had State Member of Parliament, Bill Tilley join as a member. He went to one meeting, and hasn't been back. Why? And I know him personally. because he couldn't believe how disorganised and unprofessional they were. This was a golden opportunity to get the support of a sitting member of parliament.
If we as prospectors want to be looked at favourably, we need to lose the perceived "cowboy" image that we carry, and start acting in a much more organised, and pro-active manner.
The only way forward, and I will say it again, is to form a political party to fight the other political parties.
My final word on this which I haven't said previously, is that in my letter to PMAV President Rita Bentley, I suggested to her that the PMAV needs to become a political party. I also said that if they were to do this, I would re-join and I would be happy to stand in my electorate and represent the PMAV, at the next State election.
Pete you are the only person who has been abusive here. Telling us we should be ashamed of ourselves. The simple fact here is that we are trying to be pro-active, trying to encourage people to do something, and trying to stop the continued erosion of the rights of Prospectors and Miners.
Back under your rock you go mate.

 

[PMAV]

Thanks Lynnie for keeping us informed, you are doing a fantastic job!

Thank You

 

[Pete]

Let me spell it out Puddler Bill ..When you name somebody on this forum and accuse them of something they may or may not have done (there are always two sides to a story) that, to my mind, is attacking them. Especially as they are not on the forum to defend themselves or set the record straight.

You have made derogatory comments against Rita Bentley and the same with the North East Branch. As has been stated before these people are giving their time voluntarily. How many hours per week do you think these volunteers should put in for your benefit -2 hours, 10 hours, 20 hours, 40 hours? So much work to do so few people willing to do it.

I agree that we do need to work together and not have infighting which is what makes me see red. You dont have the right to bag ANYBODY who is working for the good of the others on their own time. Full stop!

If you think I am being harsh here, and some of you will, which is fine.. Well, you said it. Thanks for acknowledging it.

The PMAV President is 100 percent wrong when she says she knows of no plans to restrict access for prospectors. You are calling her a liar? On a public forum?
Okay with the constructive comments but once it starts getting personal that is abusive and attacking.

It is my opinion that when a lobby group sends someone to your home to tell you to stop talking to the media about prospecting issues, then they get no respect from me.
What the hell were you saying to the media to have (presumably) the prospecting body of Victoria ask you to stop? It really does make me wonder. Especially after the comments you have posted on here.

This is why prospectors have such a low public profile. Only one person, Rita, is allowed to talk to the media if you are in the PMAV.
This statement is not true. Many prospectors speak to the media including myself. Ive never heard of anybody being asked not to speak to the media (before you) more like encouraged (what the hell did you say?)

..the new North East branch, would rather sit on the banks of the Murray River at Yarrawonga drinking beer, than do anything to promote prospecting.They are useless. They are volunteers Puddler who can operate a branch anyway they want. I reckon youd have some arguments from them about your summary though. From the members of the North East branch that I have met they didnt come across as beer swilling yobbos! I think they would rather get out their detectors and go hunting for gold than write a submission. You have to realise that is not everybodys cup of tea in fact, I would say writing submissions is something that would get most prospectors running the 1 minute mile in the opposite direction.

Might sound harsh here and I am.
Yes, well, you can see my point then!

And there were more derogatory remarks about the North East branch. I think youve had a run in with them mate. Dont bring it to a public forum.

In answer to Goldtarget

So many numbers so little bite.
Unfortunately, there arent so many numbers. Compared to fishing, shooting and 4wd the prospectors fall way behind. Some of these lobby groups have approx 100,000 members. PMAV, has, I think 3,000-4,000 members? That is a huge political difference. Numbers = votes = pollies attention = positive action.

The VEAC report opened up thousands of hectares of land to prospectors. How is that not a win?

It has been a fairly balanced discussion (not argument or attack)
Ha ha your kiddin right?

 

[PMAV]

Pete, You need to take your happy pills mate. No need for name calling, we are not a pack of whingers, we are having a vigorous conversation about a very serious matter. I also said the PMAV is doing a great job, but they need to go in a different direction. No one has said they don't work hard, so maybe you need to read the posts again as you seem to have missed the point.
You say the PMAV was formed 20-30 years ago, and you are right. I was a member and office bearer back then.
However, when you look at the simple hard facts there have been very few wins for prospectors. Its because over the years there has been the constant call to sign petitions. Mate, they went out of fashion in the sixties.
I also find it particularly disturbing when a local PMAV branch can't even get their crap together to write a submission to VEAC about something that will directly affect them.
The point I am trying to make, and I will say it again is that we are fighting a well oiled political machine known as the Victorian National Parks Association. Have a look at their very professional website. Look at the headings, particularly the one about prospecting, and then look at the supporters, sponsors, and patrons. Then ask yourself, how will a bunch of petitions beat them.
You said the following "So stop whinging and get off your butts and ask the PMAV how you can help." Well again, if you had read the posts PROPERLY, you would have seen where I clearly said that I sent an email to the PMAV President, after the AGM, and I am yet to see a response.
Maybe I am misguided here as I live in the North East of the State which is the home of alluvial and hard rock prospecting and mining. All I am seeing is support for detector operators in the Golden Triangle.
The North East branch of the PMAV had State Member of Parliament, Bill Tilley join as a member. He went to one meeting, and hasn't been back. Why? And I know him personally. because he couldn't believe how disorganised and unprofessional they were. This was a golden opportunity to get the support of a sitting member of parliament.
If we as prospectors want to be looked at favourably, we need to lose the perceived "cowboy" image that we carry, and start acting in a much more organised, and pro-active manner.
The only way forward, and I will say it again, is to form a political party to fight the other political parties.
My final word on this which I haven't said previously, is that in my letter to PMAV President Rita Bentley, I suggested to her that the PMAV needs to become a political party. I also said that if they were to do this, I would re-join and I would be happy to stand in my electorate and represent the PMAV, at the next State election.
Pete you are the only person who has been abusive here. Telling us we should be ashamed of ourselves. The simple fact here is that we are trying to be pro-active, trying to encourage people to do something, and trying to stop the continued erosion of the rights of Prospectors and Miners.
Back under your rock you go mate.

PuddlerBill,

i know everyone is up in arms at the moment and you have every reason to be. Our Bendigo branch has only been up and running since May last year. i worked damn hard to get it off the ground, so that i could meet members and new members to show them what the PMAV can do and is doing for prospectors.

I hope that as you quoted " I also find it particularly disturbing when a local PMAV branch can't even get their crap together to write a submission to VEAC about something that will directly affect them." was not directed at me either

Yes we need to stand our ground, make our association more known. Last year, before the AGM, i got to take out two pollies on a field trip to the Whipstick national park along with Rita Bentley. Russell Northe, our Minister for Minerals & resources and Damian Drum, Minister for Sports & recreation.

It was a very successful day. The point I am making, is that they were both aware of what is happening in the prospecting world. They do get our point and to get the two of them out for 4 hours was a a great success.

We all need to rally together. i know that out of all the recreation activities in our Parks, other than 4x4's caravan clubs, motorbike clubs etc, Prospecting has
the least impact on our parks. But yes we still get ignored

We need to get the recognition we deserve guys

Cheers

Lynnie

 

[PMAV]

Let me spell it out Puddler Bill ..When you name somebody on this forum and accuse them of something they may or may not have done (there are always two sides to a story) that, to my mind, is attacking them. Especially as they are not on the forum to defend themselves or set the record straight.

You have made derogatory comments against Rita Bentley and the same with the North East Branch. As has been stated before these people are giving their time voluntarily. How many hours per week do you think these volunteers should put in for your benefit -2 hours, 10 hours, 20 hours, 40 hours? So much work to do so few people willing to do it.

I agree that we do need to work together and not have infighting which is what makes me see red. You dont have the right to bag ANYBODY who is working for the good of the others on their own time. Full stop!

If you think I am being harsh here, and some of you will, which is fine.. Well, you said it. Thanks for acknowledging it.

The PMAV President is 100 percent wrong when she says she knows of no plans to restrict access for prospectors. You are calling her a liar? On a public forum?
Okay with the constructive comments but once it starts getting personal that is abusive and attacking.

It is my opinion that when a lobby group sends someone to your home to tell you to stop talking to the media about prospecting issues, then they get no respect from me.
What the hell were you saying to the media to have (presumably) the prospecting body of Victoria ask you to stop? It really does make me wonder. Especially after the comments you have posted on here.

This is why prospectors have such a low public profile. Only one person, Rita, is allowed to talk to the media if you are in the PMAV.
This statement is not true. Many prospectors speak to the media including myself. Ive never heard of anybody being asked not to speak to the media (before you) more like encouraged (what the hell did you say?)

..the new North East branch, would rather sit on the banks of the Murray River at Yarrawonga drinking beer, than do anything to promote prospecting.They are useless. They are volunteers Puddler who can operate a branch anyway they want. I reckon youd have some arguments from them about your summary though. From the members of the North East branch that I have met they didnt come across as beer swilling yobbos! I think they would rather get out their detectors and go hunting for gold than write a submission. You have to realise that is not everybodys cup of tea in fact, I would say writing submissions is something that would get most prospectors running the 1 minute mile in the opposite direction.

Might sound harsh here and I am.
Yes, well, you can see my point then!

And there were more derogatory remarks about the North East branch. I think youve had a run in with them mate. Dont bring it to a public forum.

In answer to Goldtarget

So many numbers so little bite.
Unfortunately, there arent so many numbers. Compared to fishing, shooting and 4wd the prospectors fall way behind. Some of these lobby groups have approx 100,000 members. PMAV, has, I think 3,000-4,000 members? That is a huge political difference. Numbers = votes = pollies attention = positive action.

The VEAC report opened up thousands of hectares of land to prospectors. How is that not a win?

It has been a fairly balanced discussion (not argument or attack)
Ha ha your kiddin right?

Pete I am hearing you mate,

i have been in contact with our local Bendigo Ady numerous times. i have had articles published. recently our Clean Up our parks day, was most successful, with six branches being involved.

We also made it on WIN news. We got our message out there.

Yes PuddlerBill you quoted - Only one person, Rita, is allowed to talk to the media if you are in the PMAV.

That is not true at all. Our Bendigo branch has been in the papers numerous times. I have spoken to the media also numerous times. This is why we have our PMAV branches. I don't think members see exactly what the PMAV do, as in Rita, Andrew Bales our vice president. Hence why we have Our BRANCHES to get our message across.

Please no more fighting for our cause, just support it guys. i think its so shameful that we only have 3100 members, and there are around 6200 miners right holders.

Cheers

Lynnie

 

[Goldtarget]

I guess is a difference of opinion. Vnpa sure took it as a blow, they reported as such. I think we lost out in that report. I base that on the proposed ban on highbankers and sluices in the NP. Pans, hand tools , and detectors only. That affects places that prospectors visit every week. Beechworth/Eldorado case in point. The NP status of that land is newly formed. As most people are aware that area had a massive dredge run up and down it for years. My concern at the recreational fossiker or prospector gets the raw end of the deal. Mining in areas from up to and more than a hundred years ago is suddenly of limits to anything but panning. Ridiculous.

My concern is then that state parks will be turned into National parks, and by default highbanking and sluicing not allowed. Wellsford state forest case in point among others. We have reserves, rivers, historical areas, native title, and private land all tucked away that can't be worked, now National parks on the agenda.

The areas that were opened up have alot of restrictions placed on them, some of those restrictions are by default. Access issues and the amount of gold bearing areas and ability to process material specifically. I find it impossible to equate taking away highbanking at Eldorado with panning in some far flung sections of the state that based little surface alluvial gold. That does not add up. I have the reports that show the throughput and recovered values of those areas. Sure they might be new but most everyone that goes there will start to wake up to the fact you can't find good gold in a pan in areas that focused on different types of recovery.

A win does not include a ban on existing methods in established areas. It's like winning $40 in 4th division tattslotto but spending thousands of dollars on tickets for the draw. And it sets a precedent. That in my mind is a very alarming path to tread. As a Fisherman, past shooter and recreational motorbike rider I can tell you Noone gets further with less. Less is less.

I am glad you have responded, perhaps these are the sorts of conversations that can lead to some positive change. In the end as I have said in the past we get a pretty awesome deal here in victoria, no doubt there's room for improvement but for the most part I'm pretty content with my lot and I love getting out and having some fun. I'm sure most people do. We all just have to keep an eye on the game as those who are oppose us can be well represented, organized, and look for any option to stop us.

 

[dwt]

To all the newcomers to this thread or forum, please take the time to go through the section on this forum under "prospecting rules and regulations"
There you will find a section called " Petition to stop the proposed ban on sluicing in Victoria"
THAT my friends is what I call UNITY!!
If we continue down the current path of slamming each other, whether on a public forum or not, we will end up with division, and an open door for our greenie greenie goody two shoes to take advantage of the situation.
There are groups out there that could do with slamming instead of each other, we all know who they are, pick on them, they are well deserving of it, filling people full of lies and deceit, part of this thread is full of exactly what they want, let's redirect the attention back to them.
So where to from here?
What's our next step?
Who is recommended to vote for in the next election?
Will we have a political representative? (If we do who is it!!)
Are we going to sit around and wait till a couple of months before the next poles to kick up a stink about different bans?
How else can we assist the PMAV or PB or whoever else it is that is willing to stand up and be recognised?
And most importantly what is our end game, we must have an end game, something to push for, something to fight for, something to stand united for, coz I'll be damned if I'm sticking my prospecting head in the sand while the greens section of the political world ram they're bloody boot up my ***!!!

 

[Goldpick]

The topic will not not be closed due to the importance of the content being discussed. Please stay on topic, and those that have made undue remarks will have the chance to make right with their posts. Any future comments that are unrelated from the main topic at hand, or that are deemed as nothing more that personal attacks will be deleted. Constructive criticism is always welcome, and there will be members that disagree on some points, but I would like to think we can continue the topic in a mature fashion. Cheers.

Beat me to it Golddigg.

 

[Marked]

I have been following this thread with a little interest, as I had wondered how much "Prospectors" and how much "Miners" the PMAV was all about; how much 'tector centric it might be - with opposing views being shared thought I might gain an insight. Given how I read the scoreboard in regards to namecalling, emotional outbursts, and (deliberately?) misreading other people's posts in an attempt to belittle them, I can only form the opinion that said organisation is likely being held back by too many volunteers patting themselves and each other on the back rather than focussing on what more they can do, or do differently, or better to further their cause. Please don't take offense at this; it is just an observation of a sad fact that limits many similar volunteer organisations in our community (in my experience).

I can only hope that the behaviour exhibited here is in the minority. Unfortunately it is the minority that is generally seen and used to form an opinion of the whole.

I took PB 's posts for what they were - a few facts, a few opinions, and some good food for thought.

 

[Guest]

My final wordS on this are as follows.
Everyone will be judged by the effort they have made to keep prospecting alive as a recreational and for some of us an income earning way of life. We are under fire from the Greens and the Victorian National Parks Association.
If we all want to continue this way of life then we need to become pro-active in regards to how we are perceived by the non prospecting public, the media, and the politicians.
Just signing a petition is NOT proactive. It is old school and a total waste of time. Do you really think the Politicians read them?
No they don't.
So if you out there are serious about doing something to save us from the loss of access to areas in the future then you need to become pro-active.
The only way to halt the loss of access and fight the Greens and the VNPA is to form a political party.
For those who have taken it on themselves to hurl abuse about my comments That's fine, I am not fazed by this.
I am making a huge effort in my own personal time as a volunteer to try and save all of your rights to prospect on public land, I don't have to do this.
If my words have seemed harsh in regards to the PMAV, I do not apologise.
I did email Rita after the last AGM in regards to this, and did not get the courtesy of a reply as I have previously stated.
I was suggesting to her what I have posted on this forum, that is to stop the ever growing tide of Greens etc, the PMAV needs to form a political party. I tried to help the PMAV but they have not responded, so don't criticise me.
As to why someone was sent to my home address a few years ago to shut me up. It was because I went on live radio highlighting the fact that the then Minister for Minerals etc. Mr Theo Theophanous was doing his best to stop Miners Rights being sold at all. He was trying to stop prospecting. I made phone calls to the Mines Department or what name they used at the time and spoke to every person from the front desk person up to the then Warden, and finally Theophanous secretary. Then the ABC radio got Theophanous on a live chat, and he refused to comment about his actions to stop the sales of Miners Rights. The efforts made by other parties to prevent this didn't work. This was all in my own time.
The result of my actions resulted in Miners Rights still being sold to prospectors. In fact the person who knocked on my door apologised a few years later when he realised I was right all along and admitted that he was told by the PMAV President to shut me up. I have copies of the radio interview and other correspondence.
The greens tv segment about Hydraulic sluicing on t.v. recently. I was the miner given 5 minutes to put something to present in front of a camera. At least it got Statewide coverage for prospectors and it made the Greens look silly. At least I did something.
In regards to the North East Branch of the PMAV. Ask them why they did not represent the members of their branch by putting in a submission to Veac about the National Parks prospecting access inquiry? Why did they not represent all recreational prospectors in fact.
In regards to the comment about them being beer swillers. Not my words.
Yes they do a few things like panning demo's and clean up day along the creek. But it needs more than that.
The question I will pose here, is why has there been only one PMAV meeting in North East Victoria in the last 20 years?
To finish, I am going to leave with a very strong statement.
When our rights as prospectors are eroded, and we are locked out of more and more areas, I want you to look in the mirror and ask yourself. What did I do to prevent this??? Thank you.

 

[Goldtarget]

Thankyou PB. Great place to start that closing statement. Hope you continue fighting the good fight and if you ever need a hand send word, anyone willing to stand against the tide has my support.

 

[Tathradj]

This would have to be one of the best topic's I have seen on the forum.
I feel that whatever happens in Victoria in the way of more types of equipment being banned ie, Bankers and pumps will have a ripple effect for the rest of Australia.
IF it is the case of High Bankers and pumps being banned when they should not be, It will not take much longer for the rest of the states to follow.
.
What is called for regardless of who does it is more public education on how we go about our hobby.
Show how we enjoy what we do that it does not cause any harm.

 

[PMAV]

Moderators REALLY!!!
Nugget would not have put up with this

Mudguts

I totally agree with you here on this one mate. Nugget would have nipped it in the bud straightaway. Look all i can say is, this has totally got out of hand. As a financial member and President of our Bendigo Branch, all i can say is I am ashamed that it has escalated to this extent.

I am by far no keyboard warrior on here. I support this wonderful forum 100% Nugget set up a section for the PMAV. I am proud that we now get recognition. I suggest moderators shift all this over to that section. I feel that many PMAV members have not seen was has occurred on here. meaning the reason this was posted in the first place. The changes being made to our Miners Rights.

it has got way out of hand now.

Simeon I remember that picture. It was displayed in Brad wilson's group and not mine at all. I never posted this up at all mate. It never appeared in True Blue at all. Brad showed me this picture two years ago. i think its appalling that anyone could post things like this.

And as for putting you down in my group. I did not start this. You know who did. Anyway this is getting way of the subject. I will pm you

Enough said guys

Lynnie

 

[Metamorphic]

Nothing wrong with the Moderation of our forum, they are watching this closely and have already made their intentions clear here.

These lads were hand picked by Nugget and for very good reason.

You can be sure Nugget is watching this closely also, and he will make his thoughts known if he so chooses.

So certain areas within the PMAV are involved with what happened to Simeon?

Dear oh dear!

 

[PMAV]

Nothing wrong with the Moderation of our forum, they are watching this closely and have already made their intentions clear here.

These lads were hand picked by Nugget and for very good reason.

You can be sure Nugget is watching this closely also, and he will make his thoughts known if he so chooses.

So certain areas within the PMAV are involved with what happened to Simeon?

Dear oh dear!

Metamorphic no there wasn't anything involved with pmav and Simeon. he is not a member. i have a face book group for Bendigo PMAV, but Simeon is not a member in there either.

The post he was referring to was in True Blue prospecting on fb. Again he is not a member of that group. anyway I have sent you a pm to explain. It does not have to be posted here and to put me down as a pmav member, and is way off topic anyway lol. check your pm mate

 

[Pr2cv]

I assume you mean a Miner's Right K/S. You can't get one online as they still have the old pricing. Go in person to your local Miners Right seller. The fact that they haven't changed the website shows how quickly this has been rushed through.
Its a bit like the Mountain Cattlemen.
They had their alpine grazing trial stopped without consultation or notification.
In fact they found out by hearing about it on the news.
The government has said that they intend to undo the damage done by the Liberal State Government.
This can only be bad news for prospectors.

Last week I had 4 days in the high country in the vicinity of Mansfield & was surprised at the amount of Blackberry & rabbits in the park.
I suggest that the damage being done by the growth of Blackberries & Rabbits is far worse than any damage cattle grazing causes.