DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES and BUSH POWER

[Ridge Runner]

Did your mate tell you the weight of the Pylontech ? It would be great if it saved you a bit of weight overall,

Having only 4.1 Sun Hours I am limited to the size of battery bank I can charge in that time So with 2 500Wh+ packs I can swap them over making sure one is always full, I don't see anyway round it without roof mounting panels or setting up a permanent Campsite but that means Hauling those panels every time I break camp and they take up a lot of space, at about 1.6m X 700mm, Time to sell them on I think.

Here am I with an excess of weight available where I have over 800Kgs going spare with the Van and If I get the Caravan/Camper I want I will have another 675kgs+ to fill, The reality of you using a much stronger Tow Vehicle compared to mine yet I get to carry more weight, It just does not make sense,

 

[Jaros]

Stick with a genny and LI batteries.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Stick with a genny and LI batteries.

So many camp sites here have banned the use of Genny's, So that's another waste of money, I could of bought a cheap little 800w one and pocketed the difference,

My Wallet could do with a night Off :/

 

[condor22]

I use a genny, but am on private bush block so no prob.

The Pylontech weighs a Gross of 15 kg according to the web page, however I think that is heavier than is, I'll check my mate.

Which also adds to the issue, some 100 AH lithiums state 11 kg. The same with AGMs, some 100 AH are 28 kg some 32 kg or more. Any AGM under 30 kg is cheap with lighter construction.

The Pylontech is a steel cased lithium, which makes it more robust an a lot safer.

So about half the weight of an AGM, but with the same power availability, you would need 2 x 100 AGMs @ 60+ kg so this then equates to 1/4 the weight.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I use a genny, but am on private bush block so no prob.

The Pylontech weighs a Gross of 15 kg according to the web page, however I think that is heavier than is, I'll check my mate.

Which also adds to the issue, some 100 AH lithiums state 11 kg. The same with AGMs, some 100 AH are 28 kg some 32 kg or more. Any AGM under 30 kg is cheap with lighter construction.

The Pylontech is a steel cased lithium, which makes it more robust an a lot safer.

So about half the weight of an AGM, but with the same power availability, you would need 2 x 100 AGMs @ 60+ kg so this then equates to 1/4 the weight.

That sounds like a bit of a game changer to me, and because you get to use all the power and you not only save on weight but you get the space back too. Win Win, :Y:

 

[A-team]

A couples of tips, we hired a camper van in NZ for a week and ran the diesel heater every night, all night - absolute best heating option. High quality heaters use such a tiny amount of fuel, even less than some examples above.

If you are using solar panels, make sure you "invest" in a high quality MPPT charge controller - it's probably the most important part!

Lithium batteries ALL THE WAY - BUT, again, "invest" in a quality BMS Battery Management System and you will have nothing but happy days!

Keep a look out at new lithium technology, it's constantly changing...eg; there is a new type of Lithium Ion battery that wont burst into flames if it fails. Personally I use lithium titanate (LTO) batteries because you can super fast charge them by all methods, but the have terrible power to weight density. Lifep04 are currently the best chemistry to use.

 

[Jaros]

Stick with a genny and LI batteries.

So many camp sites here have banned the use of Genny's, So that's another waste of money, I could of bought a cheap little 800w one and pocketed the difference,

My Wallet could do with a night Off :/

We have an 800W 4stroke genny and have only used it at home for the fridge during a planned power outage due to roadworks.
My pair of 260W panels have taken care of everything else while camping on the rare occasion i can get out.

 

[condor22]

The Pylontech has it's own BMS (Battery Management System), however, where it gets confusing, lol, you do need a BMS (Battery Monitoring System) same bloody acronym.

The BMS (management) in the battery, balances the 4 x 3.6 V lithium cells individually to make sure they charge and discharge at the same rate, manages the charge current and voltage as well as its discharge. It also reduces the charge rate depending on its needs. Over voltage and amps both ways and other protections i.e. shorting etc.

The external BMS (monitoring) does none of this, it only monitors the battery condition and state of charge.

Where this becomes a problem is in a system that has a monitoring component within the charger as the battery's BMS can interfere with this aspect.

The best way to monitor is a separate shunt monitor that measures current going in and out then calculates the difference. If the battery BMS limits current going in this is picked up by the shunt monitor.

BTW the stated operating temperature range of the Pylontech is -20 C to + 60 C, impressive. Might even work in the cold U.K. RR. :cloudy:

 

[Ridge Runner]

The Pylontech has it's own BMS (Battery Management System), however, where it gets confusing, lol, you do need a BMS (Battery Monitoring System) same bloody acronym.

The BMS (management) in the battery, balances the 4 x 3.6 V lithium cells individually to make sure they charge and discharge at the same rate, manages the charge current and voltage as well as its discharge. It also reduces the charge rate depending on its needs. Over voltage and amps both ways and other protections i.e. shorting etc.

The external BMS (monitoring) does none of this, it only monitors the battery condition and state of charge.

Where this becomes a problem is in a system that has a monitoring component within the charger as the battery's BMS can interfere with this aspect.

The best way to monitor is a separate shunt monitor that measures current going in and out then calculates the difference. If the battery BMS limits current going in this is picked up by the shunt monitor.

BTW the stated operating temperature range of the Pylontech is -20 C to + 60 C, impressive. Might even work in the cold U.K. RR. :cloudy:

Well that's a better operating Temp than a Lithium because they are best used between 0*c and 40/50*c and they don't like being charged when they are below 10*c,,,, 15*c is a better starting point to start charging them, So far this one your looking at is looking better all round. :Y:

 

[condor22]

I've been prospecting in the VIC winter, the lowest temp being -4 C, but toasty warm in the van with the diesel heater. The battery is also in the van so in the under seat area it will be colder. I checked the monitor as it has a temp sensor and it showed 18 C in the cabinet, (heater set to 22 C).

Lithium will still discharge at sub zero temps, where they don't like the cold is charging. One of the reasons in my Engel or van fridge I use AAA lithium in the temp transmitter. Unlike Metal Nickel Hydride or NiCad and even energizers, they last a helluva lot longer.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I've been prospecting in the VIC winter, the lowest temp being -4 C, but toasty warm in the van with the diesel heater. The battery is also in the van so in the under seat area it will be colder. I checked the monitor as it has a temp sensor and it showed 18 C in the cabinet, (heater set to 22 C).

Lithium will still discharge at sub zero temps, where they don't like the cold is charging. One of the reasons in my Engel or van fridge I use AAA lithium in the temp transmitter. Unlike Metal Nickel Hydride or NiCad and even energizers, they last a helluva lot longer.

I found this Lithium spec sheet elsewhere and it's specs are similar to yours, Others don't like the Cold or Hot Charging.

 

[condor22]

Big difference in number of cycles.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Big difference in number of cycles.

Did you notice you can only put 4 in a bank ?

Some I have seen can't be paired at all, I wonder if that is to do with BMS Rejection, ??

 

[A-team]

Big difference in number of cycles.

Did you notice you can only put 4 in a bank ?

Some I have seen can't be paired at all, I wonder if that is to do with BMS Rejection, ??

The only way of getting around 4 in a bank is to build your own, then you can choose how many cells and which BMS to match it. Also, consider "cycle" are 100% of RATED discharge. So if you only discharge 75% of available power - it's going to last a whole lot longer.

Next is once you reach that magic discharge cycle number, your batteries are still good. They just start minor degradation. There are specific numbers available but for example; you may lose a few percent capacity over the next year or two - barely even noticeable.

That's why it is ALWAYS a good idea to over build the capacity your battery - not only will it keep some emergency power in reserve, but add a safety margin to your batteries health while extending their overall life beyond manufactures recommendations.

 

[Ridge Runner]

My Lithium pack say going down to 80% leaving 20% in the pack but I stop mine at around 60 to 65%SOC, @ 80% discharge they are rated @ 2000 cycles. So only using 30 to 40% could give me around 8 to 10,000 cycles which is enough for 2 life times.

 

[Ded Driver]

3 weeks ago i accidentally let my 100Ah Lead Crystal (Aux) battery run down to 11.8V ... 1st time.
Whilst dealing with a multitude of family problems I had been preoccupied & left the Alternator charge circuit breaker 'off'' & had unplugged the solar panel.
I noticed via the remote fridge monitor that the temp was starting to rise.
The in-vehicle DC-DC charger didnt seem to want to start charging again, so at first I thought it was the problem.
I put my 240V 7 Stage charger across it for 12hrs & it came up fine. Tests indicate it is fully functional.
Been running in the car again with no issues.

 

[Ridge Runner]

3 weeks ago i accidentally let my 100Ah Lead Crystal (Aux) battery run down to 11.8V ... 1st time.
Whilst dealing with a multitude of family problems I had been preoccupied & left the Alternator charge circuit breaker 'off'' & had unplugged the solar panel.
I noticed via the remote fridge monitor that the temp was starting to rise.
The in-vehicle DC-DC charger didnt seem to want to start charging again, so at first I thought it was the problem.
I put my 240V 7 Stage charger across it for 12hrs & it came up fine. Tests indicate it is fully functional.
Been running in the car again with no issues.

The Flat test I saw on them was incredible how they jump back in to life and accept the full power from the charging source, In that they even smoke Lithium batteries when it comes to charging speed, They almost charge like you fuel up ya car meaning as fast as you can pour it they will accept it,

I'm still looking for one of them, I keep checking the place that sells them but they are always listed out of stock,, although they still advertise them.

I thought AGM was fast at accepting a charge so I used about 35% of my 80Ah AGM which is about 28.9Ah and so far it is still going after 4 and a half hours using a 26Ah Smart Charger,

My Portable Lithium packs Charge at around 17.5% of the Batteries Capacity, but if you use 40% of it's power then that 17.5% means it will put back that 40% in about 2 hours 16 minutes, So if the fridge chews 18/19% during the past 24 hours it will top it up in just on an hour.

Lithium is great for those on the move or if you are using a smallish battery bank and the down side is the Cost, but Lead Crystal is the fastest of the lot although they have the weight of a lead acid they cost about the same as 2 AGM's but although they are heavy you can do away with running 2 batteries because you can use all the power.

 

[condor22]

My mate phoned me an hour ago, just finished lol. Amongst other topics, I asked him re the online Pylontech specs and his. He said that the spec sheet he has is the latest info from the manufacturer, updated partially due to his involvement in testing it. So.....

4,000 cycles @ 100% cycle is current, weight is approx 13 kg, operating temp range is as stated -20 to +60, however as noted above the charging temp range is more modest 0-45.

Also re the 70 AH - 850 CCA - He is currently testing it in his older 1 tonner 5 lt V8. He commented that these are ok in "classic" cars that had simple alternators at 13.8 V and bugger all electronics. Not no good for a modern computer on wheels.

The primary reason for the 4 battery in a bank limit is due to the internal BMS.

The direct comparison to an AGM - A number of sources state varying data. This can be also attributed to quality, how charged load when used etc. So as a guide - 2,000 to 2,500 cycles at 25% Depth of Cycle (DOC) and 1,300 to 1,600 at 50% DOC. Assume your daily load needs is 100 AH, then a Pylontech will give 4,000 cycles according to the specs.

Scenario - 25% DOC will require a 400 AH AGM bank to produce 100 AH/day and maybe 2,500 times. At 50% DOC = 200 AH AGM bank, but for around 1,500 cycles.

A reasonable quality AGM will cost around $350 x 4 =$1,400 and about 120kg and need replacing at around 60% of the lithium cycle life = an average of over $2,100+.
For 2 AGMs = $700 at 60kg they will need close to 2 lots of replacement = $2,100.

Both options are double the price of the Lithium and 4 to 9 times the weight. However, the need for proper charging still needs to be factored in.

I still maintain that, if like me you have a "working well" AGM system, Lithium is still an expense too far for me and many others. If I were to buy a new van that needs a from scratch setup, different story.

 

[Ridge Runner]

My mate phoned me an hour ago, just finished lol. Amongst other topics, I asked him re the online Pylontech specs and his. He said that the spec sheet he has is the latest info from the manufacturer, updated partially due to his involvement in testing it. So.....

4,000 cycles @ 100% cycle is current, weight is approx 13 kg, operating temp range is as stated -20 to +60, however as noted above the charging temp range is more modest 0-45.

Also re the 70 AH - 850 CCA - He is currently testing it in his older 1 tonner 5 lt V8. He commented that these are ok in "classic" cars that had simple alternators at 13.8 V and bugger all electronics. Not no good for a modern computer on wheels.

The primary reason for the 4 battery in a bank limit is due to the internal BMS.

The direct comparison to an AGM - A number of sources state varying data. This can be also attributed to quality, how charged load when used etc. So as a guide - 2,000 to 2,500 cycles at 25% Depth of Cycle (DOC) and 1,300 to 1,600 at 50% DOC. Assume your daily load needs is 100 AH, then a Pylontech will give 4,000 cycles according to the specs.

Scenario - 25% DOC will require a 400 AH AGM bank to produce 100 AH/day and maybe 2,500 times. At 50% DOC = 200 AH AGM bank, but for around 1,500 cycles.

A reasonable quality AGM will cost around $350 x 4 =$1,400 and about 120kg and need replacing at around 60% of the lithium cycle life = an average of over $2,100+.
For 2 AGMs = $700 at 60kg they will need close to 2 lots of replacement = $2,100.

Both options are double the price of the Lithium and 4 to 9 times the weight. However, the need for proper charging still needs to be factored in.

I still maintain that, if like me you have a "working well" AGM system, Lithium is still an expense too far for me and many others. If I were to buy a new van that needs a from scratch setup, different story.

If it works why change it, Straight out Lithium Car Type batteries need to come down by about 30%+ before I will ever buy one, In the mean time I will keep running these PLB's, There's not brain ache involved as they have a built in MPPT and although they are only 40Ah they have more than enough power to run the fridge when the sun goes down when the fridge is set to -14*c and still manage to charge within a couple of hours and in fridge mode it would take less than an hour to charge it,

Some of these So called Solar Chargers have up to 1500Wh to 2400 and 3000Wh the trouble with ones that size you need 7 to 800w of Solar to Charge them in 3 or 4 hours. So the 500+Wh models are better for everyday use.

 

[where the nugget]

just read some of the comments in here re Lithium batteries and temps etc and cold charging and overheat charging and relying on the BMS and the temp sensors alone Wonders how many are running VICTRON SMART BATTERY SENSE to protect them from that happening with their mppts As sensors fail overtime or do not work depending on the battery builder see you tube for countless examples of cheaper lithium batteries where the temp protection has failed or was never there to start with .