DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES and BUSH POWER

[condor22]

When I turned the Lithium back on today it read 13.2 V, no load. Once I had installed the new TV and got it going, its load read 2.2 A and the battery remained at 13.2 V. Later, about 4 hours of continuous running, the TV was still using 2.2 A and the battery was still at 13.2 V.

I'm going to run the battery down to about 65% State of Charge, then recharge with the 200 W panels and the reconfigured Victron controller. The next few days are overcast and that is where I want to check the charging. I'll go out about once an hour to check SOC to see how long or if the battery takes to charge on solar. Might be a few days before I come back with a result as other stuff to do. I'll recharge before doing this as I turned the battery off and the monitor loses its memory.

In this instance, the battery voltage full is 0.4 to 0.5 V higher than my AGM's V. Plus, after 4 hours the V was still the same as when started and around 1.0 V higher than the AGM would be at the same stage.

As the amp draw was stable and the voltage higher, I can only assume the load in AH is also less than that when on the AGM.

Whilst I was in the van I washed some containers which needed me to run the water pump and here I also noted a difference. When the AGM battery was running things and I turned the pump on at the same time as the TV was on, the volume would stall on the TV and later in the night when the voltage was lower , the picture could on occasion freeze.

Enter the Lithium and new TV, when I turned the pump on earlier it made no difference to the TV output.

 

[condor22]

One thing I have not mentioned; my mate (supplier of the Pylontech) has tested this model battery to empty on several occasions. He has recorded just over 130 AH of power out when the load is under 5 amps.

Not bad for a 100 AH rated battery, but remember it was a new battery tested and over time that may reduce.

(FYI - He has very accurate and calibrated test equipment to apply loads and charging.)

 

[Simmo]

Thanks for the info matey!

So it's a Pylontech 100 AH Lithium Battery.
Price down your way? I'll research it up here.

A mate has just gone down the path of one of those cheap 'chinese' Lithiums and is conducting tests as we speak.

 

[condor22]

Simmo, I got it from my mate @ $985. I should note he is a 1 man business and I have seen them up to $50 cheaper elsewhere, but I get good support and he is like minded re the technical side of low voltage off grid power. As I mentioned it was one of only 2 Lithiums to pass a recent test on all of the 7 or 8 stages (can't remember which lol) the other being a Tesla.

He normally charges $20 to reprogram the Victron as he has to take it home, plug in to the computer as well as connect to a battery and change a few things internally via the program to achieve the best charging for the Lithium. He charged me $15 and as he only lives about 100 M from me, easy to pop over for a coffee and pick up.

When I had my panels installed, he fitted them to the roof of my van, fixed the cables above the roof and fed 1 common negative cable and 2 positives (one for each panel) into the van where I wanted them to be. They are the thin flexible panels, mastik fixed with 2 screws at the front to make sure and all waterproofed etc.

I did the internal wiring with a cushioned circuit breaker on each positive, then to the controller and then battery etc myself. Something he normally doesn't do as he prefers to be responsible for the whole job, but he knows my capability so it saved me some cash.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Simmo, I got it from my mate @ $985. I should note he is a 1 man business and I have seen them up to $50 cheaper elsewhere, but I get good support and he is like minded re the technical side of low voltage off grid power. As I mentioned it was one of only 2 Lithiums to pass a recent test on all of the 7 or 8 stages (can't remember which lol) the other being a Tesla.

He normally charges $20 to reprogram the Victron as he has to take it home, plug in to the computer as well as connect to a battery and change a few things internally via the program to achieve the best charging for the Lithium. He charged me $15 and as he only lives about 100 M from me, easy to pop over for a coffee and pick up.

When I had my panels installed, he fitted them to the roof of my van, fixed the cables above the roof and fed 1 common negative cable and 2 positives (one for each panel) into the van where I wanted them to be. They are the thin flexible panels, mastik fixed with 2 screws at the front to make sure and all waterproofed etc.

I did the internal wiring with a cushioned circuit breaker on each positive, then to the controller and then battery etc myself. Something he normally doesn't do as he prefers to be responsible for the whole job, but he knows my capability so it saved me some cash.

I wonder how fast these proper lithiums charge fom a smart charger. I wonder it they are as fast as these solar charger / power boxes.

 

[Pro-oz]

Re reprograming the Victron, I thought you could do all the settings with a smart phone? Or does your mate do a more in depth reprogram on the computer?
Interesting as I have the same Victron model 75/15.

Cheers
Prooz

 

[condor22]

I've had the Victron for a number of years, I don't think it is smart phone compatible. There is a small connector at the bottom that can be hard wired to connect to a PC. I'll ask him next time I see him.

RR Can't answer your Q unfortunately, but I would assume a 30 amp charger like I have would take longer than a 50 amp charger, which is the max rated charge, lol

 

[Pro-oz]

If it has the Blue Tooth symbol after the model number it's compatible, some are, some aren't. But it doesn't matter it's just of interest.

 

[condor22]

Checked, mine is a non Blue tooth version, it sells for about $110. You can get a smart dongle for around another $70 to plug into it to make it so. The one with the Bluetooth symbol is as little as $137 inbuilt bluetooth.

Apart from programmability, if like me you already have a monitor on the system, the bluetooth is not needed.

So as mine isn't bluetooth, it was cheaper to pay $15, get him to do it, lol.

I had a BM PRO bluetooth battery monitor and although it worked and quite well, occasionally the bluetooth would freeze when connecting. The only way to unfreeze it was to disconnect the + terminal from the battery for a few seconds, then reconnect it. When this was needed, regardless of the battery state, the display showed 50% capacity, for some time and until it figured out what the battery was really doing.

My issue here was needing to remove the dinette table, then its support pole. Then remove both L shaped lounge cushions to open the battery compartment. Then take the battery box cover off to get to it, not withstanding going to the car to get a ring spanner to do the job. Then reassemble it all. Not a big issue if only rarely needed, but it started happening too often.

 

[condor22]

In the near future, I'm gonna look at relocating the new battery, or at least think about it. As I mentioned it has an on/off switch, which would have the same access issues as the BM PRO.

However, when using the van, it would be turned on and remain on unless there was a problem. The mains charger, solar on/off and monitor are now all external to the battery compartment. So, no need to access the compartment in this case.

As it is at the moment in the backyard, the covers and table are stacked at the side of the bed and the compartment open, so easy to turn on and off, whilst I play/test occasionally.

 

[condor22]

Some observations of the Pylontech Lithium -

I've had a TV and lights on for around 4 hours to use some AH so that I can see what the solar will do tomorrow in recharging it. The 240 VAC charger is off.
I then started the diesel heater for 20 minutes to observe the voltage drop, here are the voltage and amperage readings;

1. Full battery at rest, no charge or load = 13.2 V
2. Battery at 82% State of Charge (SOC) with a 4 A load = 13.1 V
3. Battery at 81% SOC adding the start up load of the heater increased the load for a few minutes to a 14 A load = 13.0 V
4. Battery at 80% SOC heater, lights and TV switched off, no load = 13.2 V

Of note re my previous 130 AH AGM using the same point numbers, the voltages were;

1. 12.8 to 12.9
2. 12.6
3. 12.2
4. At 80% SOC approx 12.6 after resting for some time.

Conclusions - The Lithium holds voltage through no load to 14 A loads with 0.1 to 0.2 drop and recovers back to its start voltage. Compared to a 0.2 to 0.6 drop with the AGM, which also dropped 0.2 to 0.3 at 80% and would continue to drop as the SOC reduced.

I stopped at 80% SOC and will turn the panels on after dark so they start working as soon as they can tomorrow. Then check the time when the battery shows full.

 

[condor22]

Lithium been on Solar charge all day, no load. Weather conditions, occasional sun, mainly cloudy, winter.

Amp input ranged from 0.5 amps when overcast to around 3 amps in the weak sun. FYI in bright sun I've seen 13+ amps from the 20W of panels.

At 4.15 pm I saw 0.5 amps in, so switched the panels off and the 30A 240VAC charger on. It went into Absorption at 24A for about 15 minutes then went to Float. I'd estimate when the panels were turned off that the battery was at 95%.

Which means I got around 15AH from the panels. From this and knowing what a better weather day gives, it suggests there will be bad weather days where I'll need to run the genny briefly.

Additional fixed panels are not an answer as there is not a lot of space up top, plus I'd need a bigger controller. One option I'm considering is a part of that;

I have my 110W concertina panel, so if I rewire the controller input with an external anderson plug in parallel with the fixed 2 x 100W panels and actually get a bigger Victron at 30A. I'd only need to deploy it when needed. The 15A Victron, I'll slide over to replace the PWM in the 4x4.

However before I look to do that, I'll wait till I do a trip, see how many days this happens and when it does I have the genny to back me up. If it is rare then no need.

 

[condor22]

Just had another thought; Given my solar output is low in bad weather, adding 110W of panel via Anderson, on the odd occasion is not going to overload the 15A controller, but it will increase the output.

Even on a bad day getting say 6A from my 200W panels, adding 110W will still only reach 9-10A which is below the max output of the 75/15 Victron.

Only need to add the plug and cable, cheap, lol.

 

[StormCamper]

3 weeks ago i accidentally let my 100Ah Lead Crystal (Aux) battery run down to 11.8V ... 1st time.
Whilst dealing with a multitude of family problems I had been preoccupied & left the Alternator charge circuit breaker 'off'' & had unplugged the solar panel.
I noticed via the remote fridge monitor that the temp was starting to rise.
The in-vehicle DC-DC charger didnt seem to want to start charging again, so at first I thought it was the problem.
I put my 240V 7 Stage charger across it for 12hrs & it came up fine. Tests indicate it is fully functional.
Been running in the car again with no issues.

The Flat test I saw on them was incredible how they jump back in to life and accept the full power from the charging source, In that they even smoke Lithium batteries when it comes to charging speed, They almost charge like you fuel up ya car meaning as fast as you can pour it they will accept it,

I'm still looking for one of them, I keep checking the place that sells them but they are always listed out of stock,, although they still advertise them.

I thought AGM was fast at accepting a charge so I used about 35% of my 80Ah AGM which is about 28.9Ah and so far it is still going after 4 and a half hours using a 26Ah Smart Charger,

My Portable Lithium packs Charge at around 17.5% of the Batteries Capacity, but if you use 40% of it's power then that 17.5% means it will put back that 40% in about 2 hours 16 minutes, So if the fridge chews 18/19% during the past 24 hours it will top it up in just on an hour.

Lithium is great for those on the move or if you are using a smallish battery bank and the down side is the Cost, but Lead Crystal is the fastest of the lot although they have the weight of a lead acid they cost about the same as 2 AGM's but although they are heavy you can do away with running 2 batteries because you can use all the power.

Lithium actually smokes lead crystal, LC is just a modified version of an AGM, there are agms that can be charged very fast like lifeline.

All Li-mangease 3.6v and lifepo4 3.2v cells can be fast charged at 1C from empty to near 100%, some ESS grades even do better. The cells used in these consumer products are not trustworthy like quality cylindricals you get from reputable sources. Once li-on cells get to 80% soc the charge rate should be backed off by half. Li-titanate is the undisputed king of charge rate, scary.
Lifepo4 is unique due to its flat voltage profile, the voltage climbs quickly near roughly 90% soc, but it depends largely on c rate, so you hit the CV hard, so to cut a long story short one can fast charge to lower voltages more safely than higher voltages but the charger MUST have dedicated voltage sensing wires.
If you charge lifepo4 so fast it actually needs a proper absorption stage as its impossible to fully charge them to 100% at a high constant current.

Lifepo4 cell can be taken down to 3volts no problems, which is almost dead empty, its 2volts one must never cross.
My portable 280ah lifepo4 system charges at 120amps in up to 40degrees C. not including the 100A victron mppt

By the way all 3,5,7 stage chargers are just 2 stage chargers in disguise, in that they all are voltage regulators just like alternators and all do the bulk,absorb,float (constant current and constant voltage), the other stages are largely gimmicks, soft start, maintenance, return to bulk, they all do nothing much but look good on paper.

 

[condor22]

All Li-mangease 3.6v and lifepo4 3.2v cells can be fast charged at 1C from empty to near 100%,

Not strictly correct - My 100 AH Pylontech LiFePo4 manual recommends a charge rate of 0.5 C max, especially when in parallel (2-8 batteries). My Coleman Lithium pack also states, MAX 5 amps for a 40AH battery pack, which is much less than 0.5C (i.e. 0.125 C), A good quality battery's internal management system will likely limit this, but should not be relied upon. When considering that in many instances, like mine, the battery is under your butt in the lounge of a caravan, I prefer not to be sitting on a potential Bomb.

Although you can draw a Lithium down to near zero capacity, there is still a depth of cycle affect (DOC). Mine is rated to 4,000 cycles @ 80% DOC, however, if I only cycle to 75-80% DOC its life cycle rises to nearer 8,000.

As with any kind of battery, drawing to much too often shortens life, along with over charging. Too much voltage or current is also dangerous.

If a manufacturer's specifications or Safety Data Sheet give recommended charge rate, voltages, depth of cycle etc they should always be followed. as not doing so will likely void warranty or worse, be Dangerous.

 

[Goldchaser1]

180ah of calb lipo's,$169 per cell,balanced and ready to rumble

 

[Simmo]

Spot the odd one out!

 

[condor22]

Spot the odd one out!

lol

Not really odd until connected.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Spot the odd one out!

lol

Not really odd until connected.

I think he is pointing out that the Top Battery is the wrong way round,

They look like small versions of those Off Grid 2volt batteries only smaller, Those things are Hooooge. layful: layful: layful:

 

[condor22]

Spot the odd one out!

lol

Not really odd until connected.

I think he is pointing out that the Top Battery is the wrong way round,

They look like small versions of those Off Grid 2volt batteries only smaller, Those things are Hooooge. layful: layful: layful:

Exactly lol, that's why, my comment........nothing odd until then. They may be huge capacity and relative to AGM much much lighter, but you need the real Estate to fit them. My van is restricted to one 100-130 AH unless I use a parallel connection to the next space. That would entail drilling a hole and using up to 75 cm of cable as the batteries would be at least 30 cm apart and not aligned in a straight line.

My old AGM was 34kg 130 AH with around 32 to 65 AH usable. The Pylontech is 100AH, approx 13kg and up to 80 AH usable with around 4 x the cycle rate.
With my normal 35-40 AH daily use I should get around 6,000 cycles from the lithium for a 60%+ weight reduction. Plus I could go 2 days on the lithium before I need to charge.