The military don't want them.
Whinge of the day thread...
- Thread starter johnb
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I think you misinterpreted my question (not suggestion) about the "more positive input" suggested by Moneybox. #1286.
Whinge means
"complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way"
Not sure how one fits "positive" into that sentence....
Getting it off your chest......
Whinge means
"complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way"
Not sure how one fits "positive" into that sentence....
Getting it off your chest......
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Education is not the answer.
What is the point of educating and training young people when there is no work for them to do (in the communities) when they graduate?
What is needed is for Aboriginese themselves to work out how to make their communities self-supporting.
How they do that is up to them.
Perhaps they turn to animal husbandry, market gardening, or some form of light manufacture.
Perhaps they build their own houses using self-trained carpenters, brick-layers, plumbers, electricians, plasterers and painters.
Perhaps they use ant bed as a basis for construction.
Perhaps they grow the fruit and vegetables they eat.Perhaps they slaughter their own meat and use the leather in some form of handicraft.
The first thing they need to do is accept that their cultural heritage will not sustain them in this modern world and they need to
make positive efforts to improve their lot.
The solution is in their own hands, nobody else's.
What is the point of educating and training young people when there is no work for them to do (in the communities) when they graduate?
What is needed is for Aboriginese themselves to work out how to make their communities self-supporting.
How they do that is up to them.
Perhaps they turn to animal husbandry, market gardening, or some form of light manufacture.
Perhaps they build their own houses using self-trained carpenters, brick-layers, plumbers, electricians, plasterers and painters.
Perhaps they use ant bed as a basis for construction.
Perhaps they grow the fruit and vegetables they eat.Perhaps they slaughter their own meat and use the leather in some form of handicraft.
The first thing they need to do is accept that their cultural heritage will not sustain them in this modern world and they need to
make positive efforts to improve their lot.
The solution is in their own hands, nobody else's.
Lots of infrastructure to bring isolated communities in touch with the rest of the nation. Roads, Northern trans Oz railway to open up mining projects, more support for mining, irrigation projects, energy projects, together with training suitable for these projects.
These would even in the short term provide increased employment to the people that need it during construction unlike the hundreds of billions of dollar “Big Build” which is focused on Melbourne to give employment to people who already have lots of employment options.
What would $60 billion dollars, the cost of the debateably useful third stage of the outer Melbourne rail link achieve for people of the Outback?
These would even in the short term provide increased employment to the people that need it during construction unlike the hundreds of billions of dollar “Big Build” which is focused on Melbourne to give employment to people who already have lots of employment options.
What would $60 billion dollars, the cost of the debateably useful third stage of the outer Melbourne rail link achieve for people of the Outback?
Education is almost certainly the answer - it does not occur "in the communities in which they grqduate", it usually occurs in cities and they mostly don't go back because as you say, there are no jobs, so they stay in big places, buy houses, cars and educate their own kids. As a result, many remote communities have populations that are not increasing at the same rate as the NT overall. In small communities the kids mostly leave after primary school to attend hugh school. The kids who are causing the problem mostly got limited or no education. With a 25% indigenous population, NT has suffered from lack of education, not an excess.
Much building etc is done not by self-trained locals but normally apprentice -trained indigenous tradespeople (based only on what I have seen myself).
If there was much potential for self-sustaining community industries, non-indigenous people would have been out there 100 years ago doing it. The land is little use except for cattle grazing on native grasses. Where water is available (eg around Wiluna), vegetables are grown.
Mining is one of the few industries (as Marcia Langton has emphasized and got flack for doing so), but is often unpopular with indigenous people and unpopular in general with non-indigenous Australians as well (despite bringing in 60% of Australia's export income, and far more than agricultural exports). It has provided employment, and Forrest (Fortescue) have done a good job with this. We even have organizations like Indigenous Women in Mining. However distance is a factor. There was uranium mining east of Darwin (which Australians in general tried to prevent) but that has mostly gone - still good potential, but why should miners bother given attitudes (I worked there and got fed up)? Otherwise there is some minor gold mining around Tennant Creek and very trivial things around Alice Springs (gas, salt - some of which the Australian public also tries to prevent). It has worked better in WA where the population is not so anti-mining as the Australian public, and where mines are large (eg iron ore). So geography prevents it helping much around Alice Springs.
Cultural Heritage will do little to sustain these communities beyond some minor art-related and tourism industries. It is not so much a case of making positive efforts but trying to regenerate a traditional lifestyle in land with little or nothing to offer in terms of water, fertility or minerals. Yet non-indigenous Australians seem to think traditional ways are colorful and desirable (a Western lifestyle does not have to mean abandonment of all culture - but the spatial attachment of indigenous people to specific land is a major issue.
And although these comments have some relevance to the area around Alice Springs, they have little relevance to indigenous people in general, more than 90% of whom DO NOT live in remote or very remote areas (unlike the image our media portrays).
user 22230
Gavin of Garfield
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Some interesting points 
Issues regards employment availability in remote isolated areas exists regardless of being Aboriginal or not ? Also regardless all persons are in control of their own futures and what one makes of ones self in life. If my distant memory serves me correct when I left the country at 14 with fifty bucks earnt from a paper round and a spare set of clothes, there wasn't a little bucket of money that went with me ? Pretty sure if I'd sat on a stump waiting for some one to hand me my future I would still be sitting there ?
Remote area infrastructure indeed needs to be looked at urgently, just this week two mail runs just didn't arrive? Was a week between them (mail runs being a life line in remote areas) People were waiting on medication, new visa cards so they could purchase items and use ATM's. Even local postmaster did not know why there was no mail run as no roads were blocked? Old local gunny was flown out by RFDS to Cairns no problem but then one has to make their own way home? So the guys 84 just out of hospital and 600K from home with no car. That makes sense not ?
So for me 100% in agreement that infrastructure needs improving but at the same time once again is up to the individual as in reality if someone thinks they can nip down to Maccas or Subway whilst living remote then they are truly delusional. So for me one needs to choose their poison I guess.
Issues regards employment availability in remote isolated areas exists regardless of being Aboriginal or not ? Also regardless all persons are in control of their own futures and what one makes of ones self in life. If my distant memory serves me correct when I left the country at 14 with fifty bucks earnt from a paper round and a spare set of clothes, there wasn't a little bucket of money that went with me ? Pretty sure if I'd sat on a stump waiting for some one to hand me my future I would still be sitting there ?Remote area infrastructure indeed needs to be looked at urgently, just this week two mail runs just didn't arrive? Was a week between them (mail runs being a life line in remote areas) People were waiting on medication, new visa cards so they could purchase items and use ATM's. Even local postmaster did not know why there was no mail run as no roads were blocked? Old local gunny was flown out by RFDS to Cairns no problem but then one has to make their own way home? So the guys 84 just out of hospital and 600K from home with no car. That makes sense not ?
So for me 100% in agreement that infrastructure needs improving but at the same time once again is up to the individual as in reality if someone thinks they can nip down to Maccas or Subway whilst living remote then they are truly delusional. So for me one needs to choose their poison I guess.
Some of those things are justified as in the overall national interest (eg upgrading the Great Central Highway, already in progress), but I question doing most solely for the tiny populations in remote communities - otherwise it is better roads and rail to get to where there is no work?. For example, Yuendemu is just under 1000 people and would be the largest community in southern NT.
Not sure what you mean by northern Trans Oz - the Alice Springs to Darwin rail link was completed some time ago and has opened up some small mining opportunities (very small so far though).
States mostly have responsibility for building their infrastructure from GST funding that the States generate. Victoria's infrastructure build has no real relevance to places like NT, and places like WA are well cashed up and do their own as does Queensland. And the aim is to improve employment in Victoria - NT etc are not their responsibility. So - I feel it is a bit like saying why don't you give half your pay to starving Ethiopians as they could better use it - no doubt they could.
Another problem is that $60 billion dollars would go hardly anywhere in the outback compared to in coastal states like Victoria where there is a large workforce - Victoria's Big Build alone employs 75% the number of people as the entire population of Alice Springs. I'm all for more outback infrastructure but it needs a purpose and someone to provide the money (Federal in NT).
And I suspect that lack of work is only a small part of the present problem in Alice Springs - those causing the problems are probably ill-trained for the work required, and it is difficult to create jobs out of nothing (except throwing Federal money at the problem).
No, but you presumably went to the jobs, rather than wait for the jobs to come to you (I think indigenous youngsters with an adequate education do just as you did in the main - but I doubt that they are the problem in Alice Springs). You presumably did not go to comparable areas like northern Niger or Somalia looking for a job).Some interesting points
Remote area infrastructure indeed needs to be looked at urgently, just this week two mail runs just didn't arrive? Was a week between them (mail runs being a life line in remote areas) People were waiting on medication, new visa cards so they could purchase items and use ATM's. Even local postmaster did not know why there was no mail run as no roads were blocked? Old local gunny was flown out by RFDS to Cairns no problem but then one has to make their own way home? So the guys 84 just out of hospital and 600K from home with no car. That makes sense not ?
So for me 100% in agreement that infrastructure needs improving but at the same time once again is up to the individual as in reality if someone thinks they can nip down to Maccas or Subway whilst living remote then they are truly delusional. So for me one needs to choose their poison I guess.
user 22230
Gavin of Garfield
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One should never presumeNo, but you presumably went to the jobs, rather than wait for the jobs to come to you (I think indigenous youngsters with an adequate education do just as you did in the main - but I doubt that they are the problem in Alice Springs). You presumably did not go to comparable areas like northern Niger or Somalia looking for a job).
Sure I went looking for a job and ended up working ring barking around Cunnamulla - Injune for $14 a day plus your keep. Boss, his son and myself only non indigenous in camp. Those areas decades ago were a lot more remote than they are now? Have never had an issue finding work in my life time and still don't now. I ain't special in any way shape or form and the only lucky thing for me is I was born with the drive in me to go and get what I wanted. Every one should help others but the others must also want to help themselves Reality check.
Australia is the driest, flattest, hottest and lowest elevation continent on Earth, with the least runoff in its rivers. It is primarily desert. Arable land is around 6% compared with around 18% in USA and 40% in Europe.
We have a high standard of living primarily because of our minerals and energy exports, with a small but significant contribution from agricultural exports - both being pursued at a fairly optimum level of expertise. Before European settlement it supported a few hundred thousand hunter-gatherers, overwhelmingly in areas that we now live in or have highly developed for agriculture - the indigenous population in the outback was tiny. Before we plan or criticize I think we need to recognize these limiting factors.
Australia is the driest, flattest, hottest and lowest elevation continent on Earth, with the least runoff in its rivers. It is primarily desert. Arable land is around 6% compared with around 18% in USA and 40% in Europe.
We have a high standard of living primarily because of our minerals and energy exports, with a small but significant contribution from agricultural exports - both being pursued at a fairly optimum level of expertise. Before European settlement it supported a few hundred thousand hunter-gatherers, overwhelmingly in areas that we now live in or have highly developed for agriculture - the indigenous population in the outback was tiny. Before we plan or criticize I think we need to recognize these limiting factors.
It sure helps....One should never presume
Moneybox
Philip & Sandra Box
No, but you presumably went to the jobs, rather than wait for the jobs to come to you (I think indigenous youngsters with an adequate education do just as you did in the main - but I doubt that they are the problem in Alice Springs). You presumably did not go to comparable areas like northern Niger or Somalia looking for a job).
I guess their behaviour is changing with each generation but the Aboriginal way of life differs from what we are accustomed to in the workplace. Time management is unheard of so if a fellow has a start time of 8:00am he could roll in at 7:30 or 9:30am and think nothing of it. The same goes for any time throughout the day, the clock has no real meaning. Back in the 70's I had a very good worker but I never knew when he was about unless I could see him then next time you look he's gone and when he'd show up again he didn't see that he'd done anything wrong. It never really bothered me because the government paid most of his wages.
About 10yrs ago I trained the young blokes in the NEDAC workshop carrying out paid mechanical work, mostly on vehicles owned by NEDAC and the local Aboriginal community. I'd run my shop for three days and spend two days in their workshop. The same applied there, some days I'd have a good number of guys and other days one or two might turn up and their timing was whatever fitted with their other activities.
This type of behaviour can only work in workplace where time management is not required.
Dave's Office
Have Detector Will Travel
Beer went up 4% last year and it's going up another 3% soon, now that's something to whinge about. Crownies have always been my beer of choice, but being a poor old pensioner, I can't bring myself to pay $60 plus for them any more, so I decided to make them myself.
By building a northern trans Oz railway, I was thinking of one from the Pilbara to Queensland, crossing two states and one territory linking into transport corridors and ports in the east, west and north (via Darwin).
In Victoria the state government constantly reminds us to give them credit for their Big Build spending. I make no comment on the usefulness of those projects, but the federal government actually co contributes to many of these large state managed projects.
Instead of agreeing to this co funding, which states often use for political purposes, and "jobs for their boys", maybe the Feds should more carefully assess the usefulness of these projects (the $60B third stage of Melbourne's outer rail link is an example) and look more to using that funding projects for projects of greater national interest and benefit particularly in remote areas and the people who live there.
About the only major nationally managed project that I am aware of at the moment is the Melbourne - Brisbane inland rail project, 4th on the list of the 12 biggest infrastructure projects in Australia. The rest are initiated and managed by state governments probably with partial federal funding. Time for some initiatives by the federal government.
In Victoria the state government constantly reminds us to give them credit for their Big Build spending. I make no comment on the usefulness of those projects, but the federal government actually co contributes to many of these large state managed projects.
Instead of agreeing to this co funding, which states often use for political purposes, and "jobs for their boys", maybe the Feds should more carefully assess the usefulness of these projects (the $60B third stage of Melbourne's outer rail link is an example) and look more to using that funding projects for projects of greater national interest and benefit particularly in remote areas and the people who live there.
About the only major nationally managed project that I am aware of at the moment is the Melbourne - Brisbane inland rail project, 4th on the list of the 12 biggest infrastructure projects in Australia. The rest are initiated and managed by state governments probably with partial federal funding. Time for some initiatives by the federal government.
Dave's Office
Have Detector Will Travel
Whinge Of The Day thread seems to be turning into "How Can We Fix Australia's Problems" thread Just Saying No Offence Meant
Just Saying No Offence Meant
Moneybox
Philip & Sandra Box
Joe Bjelke Peterson and Sr Charles Court wanted to put that railway through a very long time ago but were stone-walled at the Territory. They wanted to cart Iron to Blackall and Coal to the Pilbara with a smelter at each end. Some short sighted federal politicians put a stop to it.
My whinge today is I only found 0.something.
Haven't weighed it yet.
Haven't weighed it yet.
Just paid my car rego and insurance in Qld. Think I may need to see my Cardiologist! Mackka
PS: I didn't think I had to pay for the M1 upgrade on my own
PS: I didn't think I had to pay for the M1 upgrade on my own
In WA you can get reduced car rego if you are a "genuine" prospector.Just paid my car rego and insurance in Qld. Think I may need to see my Cardiologist! Mackka
PS: I didn't think I had to pay for the M1 upgrade on my own
The Melbourne rail loop sounds a lot if you say it fast, but it is a more than 30 year plan, not a committed and budgeted project (i.e. thinking ahead). Only about 2.5 billion has been committed so far by State Govt and an equal amount Federal, and that is to finally give us rail to Melbourne airport (about bloody time). The Opposition opposed the rail loop and paid for that decision at the last election. The rationale is that regional Victoria will only grow by 700,000 people over that period but Melbourne will grow by 4 million (nearly doubling in size). I doubt that Federal governments would oppose it over that period given that it is a region that is more productive than most of Australia, and that matches the emphasis by both parties to industrialize and move away from just primary production (I make no comment on this aim - governments said the same in 1965). In my opinion it should not be one versus the other but both - the Great Central Highway is little more than a bad dirt road at times despite indirectly connecting Perth to Queensland.
I don't see a lot of advantage in the rail route that you mention - with developed rail and port the Pilbara iron ore does not need to go that route and it is pretty horrific engineering-wise. Sadly, Australia's remote regions not yet developed have no obvious major potential and negligible population along any inland route, and we have trouble enough keeping roads open along any route farther north much less any new rail system. Look what happened with attempts to develop an onshore gas terminal. I can see some case for developing rail from Darwin to the eastern Kimberleys, but the rivers farther west make any western coastal connection a pretty daunting task, with not much except tourism and cattle (cattle on undeveloped pastures are not a huge industry by comparison). However east of Darwin is a shocker in terms of only having uranium and lead-zinc potential and minor iron ore in Arnhem Land (already at the coast) and farther east there is a lack of any potential port sites and little to ship out of them. However significant road infrastructure makes sense in some of that area - that is the infrastructure that I consider most important. I suspect we agree that non-urban infrastructure is poorly served in Australia.
