Warning Notice from Gold Coast council Re detecting in Parks.

[rocketaroo]

Wonder if council has the legal right to demand your details, name, address etc?

In NSW at least - yes if they "reasonably suspect" your committing an offence.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/lga1993182/

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT 1993 - SECT 680
Demanding name of offender

680 Demanding name of offender

(1) An authorised person who finds a person whom the authorised person reasonably suspects of committing an offence under this Act in a public place, or an offence in respect of which the authorised person may issue a penalty notice under section 224 of theProtection of the Environment Operations Act 1997, may:

(a) demand from the person his or her name and residential address, and

(b) report the offence and the name and residential address of the person to the council as soon as practicable.

(2) The provisions of subsection (1) (b) do not apply to any police officer in respect of an offence under section 650 (use of councils free parking areas).

(3) A person who on demand made as referred to in this section:

(a) refuses to state his or her name or residential address, or

(b) states a name or residential address which in the opinion of the authorised person is false,

may without any other warrant than this Act be apprehended by the authorised person and taken before a Magistrate or authorised officer to be dealt with according to law.

(4) A Magistrate or authorised officer before whom a person is taken under subsection (3) may make a bail decision under theBail Act 2013in respect of the person.

(4A) If the person has not been charged with an offence, theBail Act 2013applies to the person as if the person were accused of an offence.

(5) A person who on demand made as referred to in this section:

(a) refuses to state his or her name or residential address, or

(b) states a false name or residential address,

is guilty of an offence.

Maximum penalty: 5 penalty units.

(6) For the purpose of applying theBail Act2013, an authorised officer has the same functions as an authorised justice under that Act.

(7) In this section:

"authorised officer"means an authorised officer under theCriminal Procedure Act1986.

The section they can get you under:
LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT 1993 - SECT 629
Injuring or removing plants, animals, rocks and soil in or from public place

629 Injuring or removing plants, animals, rocks and soil in or from public place

(1) A person who, without lawful excuse, wilfully or negligently injures, damages or unnecessarily disturbs any plant, animal, rock or soil in a public place is guilty of an offence.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

(2) A person who, without lawful excuse, removes any plant, animal, rock or soil from a public place is guilty of an offence.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Thats a shame thanks for info/best post ever on the subject..... There's no arguing your case then.

So Blame the tree vandals, they are to blame for these laws existing? And park Golfers, just nutz with divets those guys, and the ball could kill someone. Trail bike riders, idiots doing donuts in cars etc. We just are just lucky that most council park staff are reasonable people

 

[AtomRat]

I think hobbies are completely seperate to intentional damage. I've mentioned it all to our club and were booking in with council and mines department to see what can be done or agreed on. Being a club, we have rights, and we make try to make those rights lay for most prospecyors

 

[Havinago]

Its all a load of bull, but I think i'll take my chances and keep pursuing my hobby as i endeavor to make as little disturbance as possible and take all my found trash away and besides if they were to try and fine me good luck you cant get blood out of a stone and i would definitely fight it and prove that i have not upset/disturbed the natural balance (this may take a week or two to gather photo evidence) which in the end if you can prove that no harm was done they have not got a leg to stand on, or vice versa they need to prove that you have disturbed the balance and I'm pretty sure they don't have the resources or want too for that matter fight a legal battle over such a small matter.

The thing is that the majority of people wont fight for their rights and take fines etc on the chin and pay without questioning, as opposed to myself "just being lucky maybe", I have always written letters explaining the situation to the authority whether it being the SDRO or Council's, and so far I have always had the reply 'We have reviewed your case and we will not be pursuing the matter further', this has always shocked and surprised my family,friends and work colleagues who have all stated that 'there is NO WAY you will get out of this' until i show them the responding letter.

In the short time i have been detecting i have come across many council workers and public (small town) and all i get asked and/or told so far is having any luck, and wow look at that you cant even tell you've been there, and good luck, and I always show them the cans and bottle tops i have collected. I have only come across one disgruntled person so far and that was at a beach where i (with my wife) was no less than 6m from an old lady who piped up and said 'that's annoying' to which i replied with a smile 'Sorry about that but it is a public beach'. I'm not going to argue that the lady or my self have right of way because i can think of many things that people do at a beach that can be far more annoying than someone walking by (at distance) with a detector.

The point is with the whole thing is I have just as much right to use public land as anyone else and the way this country has been going the last 30yrs with political correctness and laws etc etc its a wonder we can do anything without breaking some law or upsetting someone (and in most cases you are even if you don't realize it).

So that's my rant on the subject and happy detecting

And remember a life lived in fear is not a life lived

 

[Havinago]

"Thats a shame thanks for info/best post ever on the subject..... There's no arguing your case then.

So Blame the tree vandals, they are to blame for these laws existing? And park Golfers, just nutz with divets those guys, and the ball could kill someone. Trail bike riders, idiots doing donuts in cars etc. We just are just lucky that most council park staff are reasonable people "

Plenty to argue the case with authorities I'm sure you can find relevant subsections to support the argument for detectorists', depending how ones lawyer or ones self interprets the acts and applies them to their situation, the authorities or the individual representing them are not lawyers (nor am I) i.e What is Lawful Excuse?

CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 201
Lawful excuse

(1) This section applies to any offence under section 197(1), 198(a) or 199(a)(i).

(2) A person charged with an offence to which this section applies shall, whether or not he would be treated for the purposes of this subdivision as having a lawful excuse apart from this subsection, be treated for those purposes as having a lawful excuse

(a) if at the time of the conduct alleged to constitute the offence he believed

(i) that the property in question belonged solely to himself;

(ii) that he held a right or interest in the property in question which authorized him to engage in the conduct; or

(iii) that the person or persons whom he believed to be entitled to consent to the destruction or damage in question had so consented or would have so consented if he or they had known the circumstances of the destruction or damage; or

(b) if he engaged in the conduct alleged to constitute the offence in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of such conduct he believed

(i) that the property, right or interest which he sought to protect was in immediate need of protection; and

(ii) that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.

(3) For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.

(4) For the purposes of subsection (2) a right or interest in property includes any right or privilege in or over land, whether created by grant, licence or otherwise.

(5) This section shall not be construed as taking away or otherwise affecting any other defence recognized by law as a defence to criminal charges.

 

[silver]

Wonder if council has the legal right to demand your details, name, address etc?

(1) A person who, without lawful excuse, wilfully or negligently injures, damages or unnecessarily disturbs any plant, animal, rock or soil in a public place is guilty of an offence.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

(2) A person who, without lawful excuse, removes any plant, animal, rock or soil from a public place is guilty of an offence.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

I recon grasses are not plants in this context(unless one was removing grass from site to be transplanted).
And rocks and soil would be as in landscaped areas purposefully changed and enhanced.
and a lawful excuse would be the ability to persue ones hobby or interests without hindrance or harassment in a public place.
These are only my personal views on the matter and not researched material.

 

[Dave law]

Im sure they write the laws in such a way to confuse us & we put it in the To Hard Basket. Cost of legal representation is out of most peoples reach. So we take it on the chin and move on. Imo. It sucks lemons.

 

[silver]

Do we have any Legal reps as members that could log on as guests and shed some legal light on the matter without revealing their online identities.

 

[Havinago]

Im sure they write the laws in such a way to confuse us & we put it in the To Hard Basket. Cost of legal representation is out of most peoples reach. So we take it on the chin and move on. Imo. It sucks lemons.

It confuses the council people too , Its actually the grey areas that protect us, letters with a little research do in my experience go along way before needing to consult a lawyer unless of course its something major (legal aid if needed, free of charge i believe). Yep it sucks lemons hardcore.

 

[Heatho]

Seems most council rangers are in fact quite reasonable unless a mess is being made or directed by superiors to in fact actively enforce some rules due to rat bags not obeying them. In such circumstances you can obviously still detect but you can only go for surface targets, until a rule actually states "no metal detecting".

You are not required by law in Australia to carry identification and you also have a right to silence if arrested and choose not to say anything. I would think that a council officer would have very little chance of detaining some people and would not be allowed to use un-reasonable force such as physical restraint.

Authorised officers have the power to require a person whom they reasonably suspect has
committed or is committing an offence to state their full name and residential address
(s 204(1). They may also arrest such a person if the person refuses to state their name or
residential address, or states a name and address that in the opinion of the authorised officer
is falses 204(3).
Authorised officers may
request a person to provide proof of their name and address
(s 204(2A). It is not an offence for a person to fail to provide proof of their name and address.
An authorised officer does not have the power to arrest a person for failing to provide proof of
their name and address.

These above laws are bit contradictory and vague, they can ask though you don't have to have proof of your name and address, though they can arrest you for suspecting someone has provided false information? Very murky indeed.

Anyway I recommend using common sense and not damaging parks.

In the pics I posted before the subsequent damage by sports teams needed complete re-turfing of nearly the entire sports ground which would have been paid for by the council, this was not the only field damaged, there were about 6 I've come across. They were so badly damaged that it has taken several months to restore. For a ranger to fine an individual for detecting and making a small amount of damage which will grow back quickly and not fining a sports team for a massive amount of damage that took months and thousands of dollars to repair, it would seem very unfair and very biased to fine the individual.

 

[user 4485]

It seems posting up factual law has caused some angst - not the intention. I should have explained better! The post was made to answer the question of whether council has the right to demand your details & yes, under NSW law, they do. I'd suggest other states have similar legislation. It's not only council authorised persons, such as inspectors or rangers, that have these rights under legislation - you will find NP rangers, DPI inspectors etc. etc. will all have these rights under their own relevant legislation. It's something you need to be aware of & something that may not sit well but non-compliance will most likely just lead to further legal issues with other authorities such as the local constabulary
The second part of my post was to show that if councils want to be ***** & push it they do have in the legislation something that gives them grounds to "reasonably suspect" that you are committing an offence especially if you are digging & not using less conspicuous methods like Heatho et al. The key wording being "unnecessarily disturb any plant, animal, rock or soil in a public place". If you are using minimal disturbance methods then I'd suggest that in 99% of cases you will have no issue at all - it will only be that 1% over zealous councilticket writer that will try to ruin your day. If you do the right thing you would have little to worry about & my post wasn't put up to discourage or say that you can't legally detect public places.
Of course it's all obsolete if the specific council in that area has a bylaw stating that there is no detecting allowed then you just can't do it anyway. There are a couple of councils in NSW that have such bylaws that I know of & one that allows beach detecting but not in any parks.

 

[AtomRat]

Great topic and answers everyone, we needed this I think. I guess I coukd organise to seek out legal aid but trust me, without the paperwork, they won't know what to really say either.

As stated above, I think all of us who respectfully keep it tidy by not leaving holes, disturbing others and even better, when we detect, each time it is a cleanuo australia day for us. I take glass, alloy, useless iron n plastic to the bins when I'm done my round, even if I havnt touched out. Its these sort of actions that proove to others that we are responsible. Cant talk for everyone, but it seems those of us near or in public grounds, well abide by our rules and respect others and surroundings.

If you holes are filled and invisible, there's no damage at all.

I'm with silver on the 'grass is not a plant', correct terms when it comes to the crunch does help.

I think they grey areas are intentional to hold open to debate.

Its similar to the rocketry grey area, nothing fully defined unless you are intentionally doing the wrong thing or meaning harm. Were not allowed fireworks legally, yet a rocket is considered a firework and the hobby of rocketry is fully 100% legal in VIC only.

 

[Heatho]

That's it Matt, I'm saving my angst, insolence and contempt for that over zealous 1%. I never knew they had the power to arrest but I do now, even though their powers will be severely limited compared to police, it is worth knowing your rights.

 

[user 4485]

That's it Matt, I'm saving my angst, insolence and contempt for that over zealous 1%. I never knew they had the power to arrest but I do now, even though their powers will be severely limited compared to police, it is worth knowing your rights.

:lol: Yep but I really doubt any "authorised person" would in today's world attempt to or think about physically arresting someone even if they were allowed to. They wouldn't place themselves at risk & would probably ask you to stay put while they call the police. The next step would be entirely your own decision........

 

[Heatho]

That's it Matt, I'm saving my angst, insolence and contempt for that over zealous 1%. I never knew they had the power to arrest but I do now, even though their powers will be severely limited compared to police, it is worth knowing your rights.

:lol: Yep but I really doubt any "authorised person" would in today's world attempt to or think about physically arresting someone even if they were allowed to. They wouldn't place themselves at risk & would probably ask you to stay put while they call the police. The next step would be entirely your own decision........

Yep, I'd catch a bus or taxi home and go pick up my car at about 4:35pm. :lol:

 

[AngerManagement]

In brief - I think most of use try to do the right thing

Due to other matters I have spend many hrs with 2 different solicitors and the take home message is;

Regardless of your assumptions and your interpretations or those of the council / police the Magistrate / Judge will have the final say

* Your compliance or any agro (behaviour) will be tendered as part of any proceedings and will play a significant role when the Magistrate / Judge hands down his decision. And it may not just be a fine and could entail the confiscation of items that you were using at the time.

NOTE 1: If you king hit some one and cripple or kill; many decisions are much lighter that what I think is deserved. But many forget that once the Criminal court has finished a Guilty verdict; means a Civil case and that can mean many hundreds of thousands in damages etc...

NOTE 2: However when you breach other types of law, then you can be seen to be fighting the system and the good of the PUBLIC. Thus the Magistrate / Judge is at liberty to apply all sorts of penalties. As the penalties are not any where as well defined in the criminal system..

In addition; football and other sporting grounds are often leased; the activities are defined and damage to the CLUB's playing fields are the responsibility of the Club to repair and maintain And can be reflected in their Public Liability terms.

If you did a plug and do not fill correctly on the playing field ( MANY DO JUST THAT) and a Kid or Player trips or smashes themselves up - Then the legal implications can be massive for the CLUB.

I did have permissions to do a couple of Football grounds - Limitations to outside the field and side lines. If I wanted to do the side lines and up to the edge of the playing field = I had to have my own public liability insurance. Playing field was OFF limits to any digging at all - Sunbakers only.

I lost permission to all of these places; due to Aholes digging the side lines and even the playing field.

PS. Yabbi pumping and recovery around ( I think it is 3M or 10ft ) any boat ramp is considered the same as undermining the pylons of a Bridge.

It is also a Maritime / Marine law / regulation and it can carry much more heaver penalties...

PPS. Some round here also love to dig and leave holes in Memorial Parks and other reserves - These are usually a NO GO area. But many do not understand..

 

[Havinago]

Your rights taking the piss

If you were in the states :lol: :lol: :lol:

You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions.
Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law.
You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future.
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish.
If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney.
Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?

In Australia :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are not obliged to say or do anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever you say or do may be used in evidence. Do you understand?

 

[Heatho]

In brief - I think most of use try to do the right thing

Due to other matters I have spend many hrs with 2 different solicitors and the take home message is;

Regardless of your assumptions and your interpretations or those of the council / police the Magistrate / Judge will have the final say

* Your compliance or any agro (behaviour) will be tendered as part of any proceedings and will play a significant role when the Magistrate / Judge hands down his decision. And it may not just be a fine and could entail the confiscation of items that you were using at the time.

NOTE 1: If you king hit some one and cripple or kill; many decisions are much lighter that what I think is deserved. But many forget that once the Criminal court has finished a Guilty verdict; means a Civil case and that can mean many hundreds of thousands in damages etc...

NOTE 2: However when you breach other types of law, then you can be seen to be fighting the system and the good of the PUBLIC. Thus the Magistrate / Judge is at liberty to apply all sorts of penalties. As the penalties are not any where as well defined in the criminal system..

In addition; football and other sporting grounds are often leased; the activities are defined and damage to the CLUB's playing fields are the responsibility of the Club to repair and maintain And can be reflected in their Public Liability terms.

If you did a plug and do not fill correctly on the playing field ( MANY DO JUST THAT) and a Kid or Player trips or smashes themselves up - Then the legal implications can be massive for the CLUB.

I did have permissions to do a couple of Football grounds - Limitations to outside the field and side lines. If I wanted to do the side lines and up to the edge of the playing field = I had to have my own public liability insurance. Playing field was OFF limits to any digging at all - Sunbakers only.

I lost permission to all of these places; due to Aholes digging the side lines and even the playing field.

PS. Yabbi pumping and recovery around ( I think it is 3M or 10ft ) any boat ramp is considered the same as undermining the pylons of a Bridge.

It is also a Maritime / Marine law / regulation and it can carry much more heaver penalties...

PPS. Some round here also love to dig and leave holes in Memorial Parks and other reserves - These are usually a NO GO area. But many do not understand..

I'll ask the ranger next time I see him who paid for the fields to be repaired, will be interesting to find out.

 

[user 4485]

That's it Matt, I'm saving my angst, insolence and contempt for that over zealous 1%. I never knew they had the power to arrest but I do now, even though their powers will be severely limited compared to police, it is worth knowing your rights.

:lol: Yep but I really doubt any "authorised person" would in today's world attempt to or think about physically arresting someone even if they were allowed to. They wouldn't place themselves at risk & would probably ask you to stay put while they call the police. The next step would be entirely your own decision........

Yep, I'd catch a bus or taxi home and go pick up my car at about 4:35pm. :lol:

I keep getting visions of buxom ladies, the brown bomber (local council ranger), Benny Hill music & me tearing around the local park ducking behind trees with the brown bomber in pursuit :lol:

 

[user 4485]

I'll ask the ranger next time I see him who paid for the fields to be repaired, will be interesting to find out.

I know locally that the council has the final say on playing on water affected fields. If they say ok & it's damaged then ultimately it's council that repair at their cost. Sporting clubs here pay an annual usage or lease fee for ground use & maintenance but council still has control of the grounds in that respect.
The pics you put up look better than some of the cow paddocks I played on over the years :lol:

 

[AngerManagement]

At end of day = A bit of respect and duty of care.

But the few that do not = Pissed of Council and other affected parties.

Same for just about any thing...

And do not get me started about fishing and bait and undersized / oversized fish.

OR

Pricks on a beach doing donuts at high sped with low tyre pressure and others people around..

OR

FB groups saying - Jump the fence / ignore the council or police it is all public land / Do Churches and Grave Yards of a night / tell the lifesavers to F^# Off if that ask you to move...

**** it = I am just a grumpy old man and pissed of with Aholes that are Restricting and Spoiling my retirement activities. And if that is Selfish; then so be it...