Re-pointing old crumbling mortar joints

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Just wondering if we have any brickies amongst us
Im repairing my chimney
Have used quick set mortar (Pre mix)to do one side so far but after a week it just seems too sandy and soft and doubt it will last.
The whole idea is to make it water tight and stop ingress through the joints
Tried looking at youtube but having to sift through sooooo much useless info trying to find what im after is doing my head in,and im still non the wiser
Im confident in application and finishing just not happy with the mortar mix itself
 
Sandta said:
Just wondering if we have any brickies amongst us
Im repairing my chimney
Have used quick set mortar (Pre mix)to do one side so far but after a week it just seems too sandy and soft and doubt it will last.
The whole idea is to make it water tight and stop ingress through the joints
Tried looking at youtube but having to sift through sooooo much useless info trying to find what im after is doing my head in,and im still non the wiser
Im confident in application and finishing just not happy with the mortar mix itself

Yeah Mate I have done a bit of it, You are better off using 3 and 1 with 1/2 a shovel of Lime or 4 an 1 with a whole shovel of lime, You can buy Waterproofer either paint it on afterwards or you can get some to add to the Mix while you are knocking it up, 3 and 1 will be less sandy, Ok.

Hope that helps.
 
Just a couple of things to do and not do if you mix ya own,

Seeing as this is new to you, Only mix up half of those measurements

So for 3 and 1 and half of Lime

Go 1.5 of Sand 1/2 of Cement and a 1/3 of a shovel of Lime, Get a piece of Plywood and wet it all over and Mix it up on that and keep it in the shade and Cover it with a sheet of Plastic, And If it starts to Dry out sprinkle it with a water and give it a quick Mix again and then you can use it again and just keep doing that until you have used it up, But if it goes Hard Forget it and mix another batch, Ok.
 
It also depends Sandta if you are talking about heritage bricks on an old house or modern bricks. Mrs D and I have recently bought a beautiful old place in the GT that was built from tuckpointed red bricks. It needs some re-pointing in the places that were the most exposed to weather and water from damaged gutters over the last 120 years or so. One thing that is important is to not touch it in any way at all with modern cement based mortar mixes if this is the case. The bricks were originally laid with a lime soft mortar which was nothing like todays brick laying mortars.

If you look at some old places like the Pelican Hotel in Inglewood Vic around the back in places, and many other houses, halls, hotels, churches that are 100 years old or more, you will often find repairs with modern cement based mortar that have cause spalling. It's evident in the face of the bricks where chunks have fallen off leaving a concave face. This is because lime soft mortar breathes, taking in moisture and releasing it. Modern mortar mixes don't do this, they trap the moisture in the brick. Add a frost to the equation too and you get expansion, and Pop! Off comes the fronts of your bricks, letting in even more moisture and continuing the cycle.
 
Yep, Deepseeker spot on, the old mixes were slaked lime and sand, following the slaking of the quicklime it was allowed to 'cook' for about 48hrs to make lime putty, then mixed with the sand for brick laying or pointing using a hawk and pointing trowel, looks like a long thin bar about 100 high. The other important thing about lime mortar is the old bricks had a frog and this with the lime mortar allowed the bricks to move so the walls, never developed cracks, unlike the modern buildings with extruded bricks and hard mortar. The old walls never had expansion joints either... And they say we've progressed :(

I've seen brick walls that are 100+ metres long, 4 courses thick, fully engaged and standing for over 150 yrs, not a crack anywhere.
 
Well yes this one is 120 years old
So now what ? 8.(
Its been patched (BODGED!) many times by the looks
Ive already ground out the whole thing
I had to anyway , it leaks like a sieve
 
Sandta said:
Well yes this one is 120 years old
So now what ? 8.(
Its been patched (BODGED!) many times by the looks
Ive already ground out the whole thing
I had to anyway , it leaks like a sieve

If this chimney is that old and it leaks like a sieve then if you want it water tight then I think you need to cover the brickwork up with render, sealer and texture for it to be watertight.
Otherwise use a watertight sealer for the bricks. But if your bricks are crumbly, then the first method will save the bricks for a while.

I've done bricks that have been eroded away by salt spray from the ocean by 20% and the render is still holding up 12 years later.
 
If it is Victorian Brickwork there should not be any Cement in It as it will draw moisture,

Victorian Mortar should be Lime Mortar with a 3.5 mix on the Gables and a 1:2 mix elsewhere,

DON'T use a Jointing Rake on the Perps, Victorian Mortar has a Weather Struck Finish, Jointing Rakes ETC were an American Idea that Came out in the 60's/70's.

And it has to be allowed to Dry naturally not with the Direct Sun On It or in Sub Zero Temps because it takes a while to Dry Out,
 
My original plan was to render it....
But after my last rendering attempt on another project ,which i have had to chip back off because it didnt work so well (Yet to be revisited)
I thought repointing would be an easier/safer option :)
Oh well ... by the end of it all i might have learned a few new things
Steep learning curve ;)
 
Sandta said:
My original plan was to render it....
But after my last rendering attempt on another project ,which i have had to chip back off because it didnt work so well (Yet to be revisited)
I thought repointing would be an easier/safer option :)
Oh well ... by the end of it all i might have learned a few new things
Steep learning curve ;)

When you Rendered it Did you Unibond it First ??
 
Sandta said:
No
I youtubed it though :lol:
Im sure there is lots of good info on there but you have to wade through plenty of ***** to find it
And if you have no idea to start with ... how do you know whats good and whats :poop: ;)

Well weather you are Plastering with real Plaster or Rendering you must Unbond it, This is where you mix up 3 parts Water to 1 part PVA Glue and stir it up with a stick until mixed and then sweep the Dust from the Wall etc to be Rendered and then Paint the Unibond all over it and then let it Go Off until it is just Tacky Which normally takes 15mins to half hour then Start Rendering and the Water in the PVA/Unibond will be RE-Activated by the water in the Render and it will stick like Crazy once it has Dried.

Once this is Done It won't come off without a Hammer Chisel and then Cleaning the Bricks up with a big Grinder and a Heavy Duty Wire Wheel.

If you do render it like that it won't come off in 40 or 50 years.,

Also If you want to paint Plain Bare Brick work, Mix up some Unibond/PVA the same way and Paint the Brickwork or Rendering with it and it will Key the Paint to what ever you are Painting.

Also use the same Mix if you are Painting MDF Board again it will act as a Key but let it Dry First fully, Ok, :Y:

Another thing Unibonding does is tighten up the surface of soft crumbling brick surfaces, Fibro, And allows Plaster Board/Gyproc to be painted without it sucking up Gallons of Paint.
 
Only my 2c mate for what its worth. Ive worked in tandem with a couple of professional renderers and have an old school brickie that I call on from time to time. In my dealings it pays to put the pros in charge even if it feels like serious :money: , mostly as they deal with all kinds of things the d-i-y-er has never encountered before.

Grab a quote or two and have a detailed discussion about what you want to achieve.

Lost count of times fixing others :poop: half done jobs that would have been (sometimes a lot) cheaper for a client had just done it right the first time.

Be at a job tomorrow where the owners had a go at the paths around their house. Baffles me when you've out laid a few 100k on a build and block why someone would try and save a couple K on concreters that makes it look like dog :poop: :lol: .
 
You may be better off consulting a brickie who specializes in heritage brick laying and repairs first. The reason I say this is because you may exacerbate the problem by rendering such brick and mortar work. I'm assuming by rendering, you are referring to a modern render that uses portland cement as part of the mix? Unibond will probably also cause problems with preventing the bricks and soft lime mortar from breathing. Remember, especially with a chimney, moisture can also enter the brickwork from behind, as well as any moisture introduced to the brickwork by the Unibond.

Cement works on modern bricks because of the controlled uniform temperatures under which they were fired. They have a much harder impermeable skin on them that repels moisture. Earlier bricks vary hugely, even from the same batch. Some are no better than the sun-dried bricks that are often found in some old buildings and walls. Heritage consultants always say that if you do paint such brickwork it should be with a limewash paint like you find in the Porters range, made from the original recipes. They allow the bricks and mortar to still breathe. If you go the Unibond/render way, you may find that it does last for many years- On the spalled pieces of brick that expand and come off with it :awful:

What you have there are Bricks and Mortar in name only, that may look the same, but are completely different to modern bricks, mortar, and techniques. They were laid using the method explained by Dihusky, and they are walls/chimneys etc that flex, breathe, and will stand for hundreds of years, but only if they are maintained correctly. Any short term satisfaction at a job that looks well done will almost certainly lead to long term misery for either yourself or any future buyers/owners of your property. It can also affect its value if someone who knows what they are looking at sees a heap of work that they know is going to give them problems in the future.

At one of my other properties in Eden Park in Vic, I have an old chimney that has brickwork around 110 years old. When I was getting quotes for a new roof, I asked each plumber how they would do around the chimney. The cheapest quote came from a nice chap who told me that they would simply cut or grind a groove down the brickwork at the same angle of the roof and run an apron flashing. Immediately that rang warning bells for me, as you never remove material from heritage bricks with power tools, only as a last resort sometimes when removing old mortar, and only then along the center line of the mortar, removing the rest with a hand tool. I eventually settled on a guy who explained to me how it needed to be step flashed and why, protecting the integrity of the bricks. Overall they were the most expensive quote, but they obviously knew what they were doing and the workmanship looks as beautiful as the day it was made. :perfect:
 
Locrete was the name of a waterproofing that was mixed into the cement when redoing old rusty watertanks back to usability. I don't however know about rendering chimneys. The only ones I've seen up here have been exposed brick. And always baked clay brick as anything else cracks from the heat. I would imagine the mix to be the same as you would use inside the old coke stoves that had the hot water pipes rendered in cement (that never cracked).

I ain't watched this at all... but I do advocate utube learning for stepping outside the personal knowledge zone
[video=480,360]https://youtu.be/9cwJC8QrKiA[/video]
 
Your chimney is leaking, but where from? Outside or inside, if outside, whereabouts and where is the water entering the room below? Have you checked the leadwork, if the pointing is coming out water can get behind the the top turnbacks, maybe the lead has oxidised and become porous and or the wedges released from the brick joints, many different locations to check before jumping in and possibly creating more problems.
 

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