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Hi all, interesting thread and in my opinion sluices are not used for fossicking and as such Craig Watson, Senior Mining Registrar, Field and Land Access, is wrong.
QLD Fossicking Laws!!!
- Thread starter rc62burke
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Of course you may want a little more than my opinion so here's some Case Law which looks to apply:
Gonzo Holdings No 50 Pty Ltd v McKie [1995] QCA 304 Macrossan CJ. McPherson JA. Thomas J. 14/07/1995 (delivered ex tempore)
Resp seized applt's gold mining equipment - Wh exploratory operation of pilot plant amounted to 'mining' - Wh 'extracting mineral from its natural state' extends to washing or treating gold bearing materials - Wh appellant 'disposing of any waste substances'.
In brief, the bad boy here had a current gold lease BUT his processing equipment was on an adjacent private property and the gold lease on that property had expired. He had permission from the property owner to use the processing equiment and so pulled material from the gold lease section and then trucked it to the expired lease section to process. Mines Dep said nope that's mining and you don't have a lease and confiscated his equipment. Court agreed with Mines Dept but then the Court of Appeal found against the Mines Dept and found there was a difference between MINING and EXTRACTING.
I would think the current definition of Fossicking looks to sit quite well alongside the definition of Mining in this case - fossicking is getting the materials, sluicing is classifying, extracting, concentrating etc and as such a separate process.
Quoting from that case:
"The expression "extracting mineral from its natural state" in para.(b) of the definition is plainly
capable of a wide or a narrow interpretation. The strength of the respondent's position is that,
according to ordinary rules of interpretation, some meaning or content must be assigned to the
expression in para.(b) which differs from or adds to that in para.(a). Adopting this approach, it is
said that para.(b) refers or extends to the operation of treating a "substance which normally occurs
naturally as part of the earth's crust" for the purpose of "extracting minerals from its natural state".
Treating by washing the material on the Currajong land would on this view, constitute "mining" within
the terms of para.(b) because it involves extracting gold fines from their natural state. It follows that
treating bauxite by refining and smelting to produce alumina, or copper sulphate by electrolysis to
produce copper, would also involve extracting minerals from their natural state.
Such an interpretation would, however, have ramifications so far-reaching as to raise serious
doubts about its correctness. It would mean that every activity undertaken anywhere in the State
which resulted in the extraction of a mineral from a compound of which it formed an element would
necessarily constitute "mining" within the terms of para.(b) of the definition. Laboratories in
universities, schools, or in private institutions which engaged in separating or assaying minerals would
be brought within the Act. Unless in each instance someone had the forethought to apply for a
mining lease over the land on which such activities were being conducted, they would inevitably
contravene s.11.17(1) of the Act, and their equipment would be liable to seizure under s.10(8)(1).
What is more, the same would be true of any of the various plants in different parts of the State
which carry out processing and treatment of ores won from the ground elsewhere in the State under
the authority of a mining lease, or even brought into the State from somewhere else. There is nothing
in the Act, apart from para.(b) of the definition, that suggests that activities like that amount to
mining.
Here's the link to the Judgement - archive.sclqld.org.au/qjudgment/1995/QCA95-304.pdf
As this is only my second post I can't post a link so just add http:// in front of the above link to PDF.
Gonzo Holdings No 50 Pty Ltd v McKie [1995] QCA 304 Macrossan CJ. McPherson JA. Thomas J. 14/07/1995 (delivered ex tempore)
Resp seized applt's gold mining equipment - Wh exploratory operation of pilot plant amounted to 'mining' - Wh 'extracting mineral from its natural state' extends to washing or treating gold bearing materials - Wh appellant 'disposing of any waste substances'.
In brief, the bad boy here had a current gold lease BUT his processing equipment was on an adjacent private property and the gold lease on that property had expired. He had permission from the property owner to use the processing equiment and so pulled material from the gold lease section and then trucked it to the expired lease section to process. Mines Dep said nope that's mining and you don't have a lease and confiscated his equipment. Court agreed with Mines Dept but then the Court of Appeal found against the Mines Dept and found there was a difference between MINING and EXTRACTING.
I would think the current definition of Fossicking looks to sit quite well alongside the definition of Mining in this case - fossicking is getting the materials, sluicing is classifying, extracting, concentrating etc and as such a separate process.
Quoting from that case:
"The expression "extracting mineral from its natural state" in para.(b) of the definition is plainly
capable of a wide or a narrow interpretation. The strength of the respondent's position is that,
according to ordinary rules of interpretation, some meaning or content must be assigned to the
expression in para.(b) which differs from or adds to that in para.(a). Adopting this approach, it is
said that para.(b) refers or extends to the operation of treating a "substance which normally occurs
naturally as part of the earth's crust" for the purpose of "extracting minerals from its natural state".
Treating by washing the material on the Currajong land would on this view, constitute "mining" within
the terms of para.(b) because it involves extracting gold fines from their natural state. It follows that
treating bauxite by refining and smelting to produce alumina, or copper sulphate by electrolysis to
produce copper, would also involve extracting minerals from their natural state.
Such an interpretation would, however, have ramifications so far-reaching as to raise serious
doubts about its correctness. It would mean that every activity undertaken anywhere in the State
which resulted in the extraction of a mineral from a compound of which it formed an element would
necessarily constitute "mining" within the terms of para.(b) of the definition. Laboratories in
universities, schools, or in private institutions which engaged in separating or assaying minerals would
be brought within the Act. Unless in each instance someone had the forethought to apply for a
mining lease over the land on which such activities were being conducted, they would inevitably
contravene s.11.17(1) of the Act, and their equipment would be liable to seizure under s.10(8)(1).
What is more, the same would be true of any of the various plants in different parts of the State
which carry out processing and treatment of ores won from the ground elsewhere in the State under
the authority of a mining lease, or even brought into the State from somewhere else. There is nothing
in the Act, apart from para.(b) of the definition, that suggests that activities like that amount to
mining.
Here's the link to the Judgement - archive.sclqld.org.au/qjudgment/1995/QCA95-304.pdf
As this is only my second post I can't post a link so just add http:// in front of the above link to PDF.
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And the relevant provisions of the Act:
Fossicking Act 1994
Current as at 1 October 2014
3 Definitions
In this Act
fossick
see section 5.
fossicking material means
(a) a gemstone; or
(b) an ornamental stone; or
(c) a mineral specimen; or
(d) alluvial gold; or
(e) a fossil (other than a fossil of a vertebrate animal); or
(f) a substance prescribed by regulation to be fossicking material;
but does not include a meteorite, tektite, or impact or ejected material associated with a meteorite impact structure
hand tool means
(a) a pick, shovel, hammer, sieve, shaker, or electronic detector; or
(b) a tool declared by regulation to be a hand tool.
5 Meaning of fossick
(1)
Fossick means
(a) search for fossicking materials in a systematic or unsystematic way
(i) on the grounds surface; or
(ii) by digging with a hand tool; or
(b) collect fossicking materials.
(2) However, a person does not fossick merely because the person picks up a specimen of fossicking material the person finds by chance when doing something other than fossicking.
38 Use of machinery etc. prohibited
A person fossicking under a licence must not use machinery or equipment (other than a hand tool) to fossick.
Maximum penalty400 penalty units.
39 Limits on digging
(1) A person fossicking under a licence must not dig below ground level
(a) to a depth, measured from the highest point at the top of the land dug, of more than
(i) 0.5m in a watercourse; or
(ii) 2m on other land; or
(iii) a depth fixed under subsection (2); or
(b) if the digging involves tunnelling under land or creating an overhang; or
(c) in a road reserve.
Maximum penalty20 penalty units.
(2) If, in the Ministers opinion, digging to a depth mentioned in subsection (1)(a)(i) or (ii) on particular land may be unsafe, the Governor in Council may fix a reduced depth for the land by regulation.
Fossicking Act 1994
Current as at 1 October 2014
3 Definitions
In this Act
fossick
see section 5.
fossicking material means
(a) a gemstone; or
(b) an ornamental stone; or
(c) a mineral specimen; or
(d) alluvial gold; or
(e) a fossil (other than a fossil of a vertebrate animal); or
(f) a substance prescribed by regulation to be fossicking material;
but does not include a meteorite, tektite, or impact or ejected material associated with a meteorite impact structure
hand tool means
(a) a pick, shovel, hammer, sieve, shaker, or electronic detector; or
(b) a tool declared by regulation to be a hand tool.
5 Meaning of fossick
(1)
Fossick means
(a) search for fossicking materials in a systematic or unsystematic way
(i) on the grounds surface; or
(ii) by digging with a hand tool; or
(b) collect fossicking materials.
(2) However, a person does not fossick merely because the person picks up a specimen of fossicking material the person finds by chance when doing something other than fossicking.
38 Use of machinery etc. prohibited
A person fossicking under a licence must not use machinery or equipment (other than a hand tool) to fossick.
Maximum penalty400 penalty units.
39 Limits on digging
(1) A person fossicking under a licence must not dig below ground level
(a) to a depth, measured from the highest point at the top of the land dug, of more than
(i) 0.5m in a watercourse; or
(ii) 2m on other land; or
(iii) a depth fixed under subsection (2); or
(b) if the digging involves tunnelling under land or creating an overhang; or
(c) in a road reserve.
Maximum penalty20 penalty units.
(2) If, in the Ministers opinion, digging to a depth mentioned in subsection (1)(a)(i) or (ii) on particular land may be unsafe, the Governor in Council may fix a reduced depth for the land by regulation.
I may have missed something here, but what does a penalty unit equate to.???
Large mines are the same mate, do something wrong, accumulate points, I don't know if one point equals one dollar or one day of jail time :lol: but an accumulation or large amount of points is what will see you face the man.
I've been told that you need 500 points to face fines 5000 to face courts, but with no actual proof of being able to find this out for sure I'll just leave it up to someone with the right knowledge to clarify, maybe the mining warden if he ever floats by this thread
I've been told that you need 500 points to face fines 5000 to face courts, but with no actual proof of being able to find this out for sure I'll just leave it up to someone with the right knowledge to clarify, maybe the mining warden if he ever floats by this thread
Thanks DWT.
Jaros
Jaros
Goldtarget
(AKA OldGT)
They set it out in government (state and federal) every year in schedules, currently the are around the $100-115 mark depending on state and are indexed for inflation, the theory being that the unit accurately reflects the fine rather than a prescribed amount in dollars at which point the fine would dilute every year. Just put "standard penalty unit" in a search engine to dig into it a bit deeper.
Thanks mate:Goldtarget
Penalty unit
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Australian law, a penalty unit (abbreviated as PU) is an amount of money used to compute pecuniary penalties for many breaches of statute law. Fines are calculated by multiplying the value of one penalty unit by the number of penalty units prescribed for the offence.
The different jurisdictions that make up Australia (the Commonwealth and the states and territories) each have their own penalty units. The value of a penalty unit, and the manner and frequency of varying that value, differ from state to state, and there are also federal penalty units that apply only to federal offences.
In the state of Victoria, the value of a penalty unit is the amount fixed with respect to a financial year by the Treasurer by notice published in the Government Gazette under the Monetary Units Act 2004. The penalty unit rate is fixed at A$144.36 as of 1 July 2013.[1] Therefore a fine defined as 100 penalty units would incur a penalty of $14,084 (rounded to the nearest 10 cents). One penalty unit in New South Wales is $110.[2] One penalty unit in Queensland is $113.85[3]
Under Australian federal law a penalty unit for an individual is $170 as of 2013.[4]
Penalty unit
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Australian law, a penalty unit (abbreviated as PU) is an amount of money used to compute pecuniary penalties for many breaches of statute law. Fines are calculated by multiplying the value of one penalty unit by the number of penalty units prescribed for the offence.
The different jurisdictions that make up Australia (the Commonwealth and the states and territories) each have their own penalty units. The value of a penalty unit, and the manner and frequency of varying that value, differ from state to state, and there are also federal penalty units that apply only to federal offences.
In the state of Victoria, the value of a penalty unit is the amount fixed with respect to a financial year by the Treasurer by notice published in the Government Gazette under the Monetary Units Act 2004. The penalty unit rate is fixed at A$144.36 as of 1 July 2013.[1] Therefore a fine defined as 100 penalty units would incur a penalty of $14,084 (rounded to the nearest 10 cents). One penalty unit in New South Wales is $110.[2] One penalty unit in Queensland is $113.85[3]
Under Australian federal law a penalty unit for an individual is $170 as of 2013.[4]
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better you all jump in and lobby all mp,s etc and try to stop it or the tree huggers wil beat you all, live beside what was a state forest and you could get a permit to cut firewood.nsw labour gov in cahoots with idiot greenies, changed every thing to a national park,yet last year we had a tornado drop around a 1000 tons of red gum,and you can,t touch it.we might be making a little bit of smoke but has any one seen the lines of coal trucks going to port and sent to china and so on? they are not going to eat it and if they burn it are they on another planet?seem,s it all comes down to the almighty $dollar$ oh and i can still get a permit to cut a bit of firewood,it,s around 200 odd klm,s away, need to change to gas? well they fixed that to, same as oil, world parity priceing and the first, ship load of gas left just resently from new port in gladstone for china, only $40,000.000 buks worth, WORK HARD AT IT CHAPS OR THEY WILL BEAT YOU I AM SURE, GOOD LUCK, ps just built a new sluice but doubt it will get much use as most of my fossicking is south of border in victoria,
G0lddigg@ said:
I just spoke to Brisbane office that put me through to Rockhampton office that put me through to Emerald office - got the distinct feeling they were passing the buck .....
Finally spoke to an inspector/warden (who knows) in Emerald who's answer as to whether a hand operated "Dry Blower" could be used was "YES". If it had a mechanical device attached - electric or petrol driven then NO, it was then deemed mechanical.
I asked him whether sluices were allowed and he said "I'll get back to you on that one" He wasn't too sure of a previous outcome concerning river sluices and will ring back this arvo.
I also asked him about shakers - I'm not entirely sure what a shaker is - is it a "Gold Shaking" table? in which case if it is then he said they were OK if not motorised .
I'll let you know the outcome
ya never know!Hi Rotor,
If Qld is anything like Tassie, make sure you explain exactly what you mean by sluicing and river sluice. Down here most people, including many regulators, have an idea that sluicing is hydraulic sluicing, i.e. washing away heaps of ground. When they see my Angus McKirk sluice, the response is usually along the lines of: "that's hardly more than a glorified pan, of course that's ok!".
If Qld is anything like Tassie, make sure you explain exactly what you mean by sluicing and river sluice. Down here most people, including many regulators, have an idea that sluicing is hydraulic sluicing, i.e. washing away heaps of ground. When they see my Angus McKirk sluice, the response is usually along the lines of: "that's hardly more than a glorified pan, of course that's ok!".
Thx mfdes,
Called different things in different areas/states.
Second part (b) is probably the only way we'd have any chance of changing reg's concerning hand tools. It'd be nice to include a few larger "Hand Tools" and bring us inline with other states.
Called different things in different areas/states.
Second part (b) is probably the only way we'd have any chance of changing reg's concerning hand tools. It'd be nice to include a few larger "Hand Tools" and bring us inline with other states.
PaulfromQLD said:
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Hi Yobskin, just got my QLD license the other day and asked the person who issued it to me via email, could he please clarify for me the regs as they stand in writing please can I use a sluice in a creek say at Gympie, where I went today, for the first time...yayyy been waiting so long, found 3 nice colors. And back to the discussion, my other question was, can I use my crevice sucker?
This is his reply.
Len
Simple answer to your question, only hand tools as listed below from the Fossicking Act 1994.
hand tool means
(a) a pick, shovel, hammer, sieve, shaker, or electronic
detector; or
(b) a tool declared by regulation to be a hand tool.
This would mean that equipment or mechanical devices powered/operated by electrical, solar, battery, internal combustion, pneumatic, winched etc are a prohibited machine.
This also includes pumps for high bankers and sluice boxes.
The only exception to this is in the hand tool definition, a metal detector(electronic detector) is permitted.
:lol: Sluices which use the natural flow or are feed with water by hand means (no mechanical pump etc) are acceptable.
:lol: Hand held crevice sucker is acceptable so long as there is no mechanical device powering it, eg electrical, solar, battery, internal combustion, pneumatic etc
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/F/FossickingA94.pdf Fossicking Act 1994
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/F/FossickingR09.pdf Fossicking Regulations 2009
38 Use of machinery etc. prohibited
A person fossicking under a licence must not use machinery
or equipment (other than a hand tool) to fossick.
Maximum penalty400 penalty units.
39 Limits on digging
(1) A person fossicking under a licence must not dig below
ground level
(a) to a depth, measured from the highest point at the top of
the land dug, of more than
(i) 0.5m in a watercourse; or
(ii) 2m on other land; or
(iii) a depth fixed under subsection (2); or
(b) if the digging involves tunnelling under land or creating
an overhang; or
(c) in a road reserve.
Maximum penalty20 penalty units.
16 Structures, dams and machinery
A person must not erect an enclosed structure, dam or
pipeline, or install fixed machinery, on designated fossicking
land or a fossicking area.
Maximum penalty50 penalty units.
19 Other prohibited conduct
A person on designated fossicking land or a fossicking area
must not
(a) use a weapon, trap or explosive on the land, unless the
person has a reasonable excuse; or
(b) operate a generator, engine-driven equipment, radio or
other electrical appliance in a way that may
unreasonably annoy someone else on the land; or
(c) damage or destroy a wall, fence, building, barrier, sign,
receptacle or other structure; or
(d) light a fire
(i) in a place other than a cleared space with a radius
of at least 2m or a properly built fireplace; or
(ii) if, under a sign erected on the land by the chief
executive, a person must not light a fire on the
land; or
(e) allow water, other than water the person brought onto
the land, to run to waste; or
(f) if, under a sign erected on the land by the chief
executive, a person must not bring a cat or dog onto the
landbring a cat or dog onto the land.
Maximum penalty20 penalty units.
Regards
Rossco
Hope that helps the Queenslanderrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs
Cheers
Len
This is his reply.
Len
Simple answer to your question, only hand tools as listed below from the Fossicking Act 1994.
hand tool means
(a) a pick, shovel, hammer, sieve, shaker, or electronic
detector; or
(b) a tool declared by regulation to be a hand tool.
This would mean that equipment or mechanical devices powered/operated by electrical, solar, battery, internal combustion, pneumatic, winched etc are a prohibited machine.
This also includes pumps for high bankers and sluice boxes.
The only exception to this is in the hand tool definition, a metal detector(electronic detector) is permitted.
:lol: Sluices which use the natural flow or are feed with water by hand means (no mechanical pump etc) are acceptable.
:lol: Hand held crevice sucker is acceptable so long as there is no mechanical device powering it, eg electrical, solar, battery, internal combustion, pneumatic etc
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/F/FossickingA94.pdf Fossicking Act 1994
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/F/FossickingR09.pdf Fossicking Regulations 2009
38 Use of machinery etc. prohibited
A person fossicking under a licence must not use machinery
or equipment (other than a hand tool) to fossick.
Maximum penalty400 penalty units.
39 Limits on digging
(1) A person fossicking under a licence must not dig below
ground level
(a) to a depth, measured from the highest point at the top of
the land dug, of more than
(i) 0.5m in a watercourse; or
(ii) 2m on other land; or
(iii) a depth fixed under subsection (2); or
(b) if the digging involves tunnelling under land or creating
an overhang; or
(c) in a road reserve.
Maximum penalty20 penalty units.
16 Structures, dams and machinery
A person must not erect an enclosed structure, dam or
pipeline, or install fixed machinery, on designated fossicking
land or a fossicking area.
Maximum penalty50 penalty units.
19 Other prohibited conduct
A person on designated fossicking land or a fossicking area
must not
(a) use a weapon, trap or explosive on the land, unless the
person has a reasonable excuse; or
(b) operate a generator, engine-driven equipment, radio or
other electrical appliance in a way that may
unreasonably annoy someone else on the land; or
(c) damage or destroy a wall, fence, building, barrier, sign,
receptacle or other structure; or
(d) light a fire
(i) in a place other than a cleared space with a radius
of at least 2m or a properly built fireplace; or
(ii) if, under a sign erected on the land by the chief
executive, a person must not light a fire on the
land; or
(e) allow water, other than water the person brought onto
the land, to run to waste; or
(f) if, under a sign erected on the land by the chief
executive, a person must not bring a cat or dog onto the
landbring a cat or dog onto the land.
Maximum penalty20 penalty units.
Regards
Rossco
Hope that helps the Queenslanderrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs
Cheers
Len
Just thought i'd add
The penalty unit value in Queensland is $117.80 (current from 1 July 2015).
Jaros 8.(
The penalty unit value in Queensland is $117.80 (current from 1 July 2015).
Jaros 8.(
The Grey area in the QLD Fossicking Act. is the word Collect and Collection.
1- Does collect mean when its search and dug lawfully with hand tools and then when the fossicking material is placed (collected) in your bucket, gold pan etc.
2- or, Is it collected after you have sorted, processed, classified the lawfully collected Fossicking material.
Lets put it this way. Lets say that you search for fossicking materials lawfully with hand tools and then you collect that material and put it into you bucket. Could an Authorized Officer Confiscate that material in your bucket?? I don't believe the Officer can confiscate that material in your bucket, because you have collected the material Lawfully using hand tools and at the point of collection the material becomes your Property.
I would like to emphasize the word "Your Property".
34 When fossicking materials become licensees property
(1) If fossicking materials lawfully collected under a licence are
the property of the State, the materials become the licensees
property on collection.
(2) However, the licensee must pay royalties on the fossicking
materials.
(3) Subsection (1) applies despite the following provisions
Mineral Resources Act 1989, section 8.
Forestry Act 1959, section 45
Water Act 2000, section 279.
So as far a i understand the Act., when the material is collected, then it becomes your property and you can deal with that material as you see fit, providing you do it lawfully in regards to any other Act.
1- Does collect mean when its search and dug lawfully with hand tools and then when the fossicking material is placed (collected) in your bucket, gold pan etc.
2- or, Is it collected after you have sorted, processed, classified the lawfully collected Fossicking material.
Lets put it this way. Lets say that you search for fossicking materials lawfully with hand tools and then you collect that material and put it into you bucket. Could an Authorized Officer Confiscate that material in your bucket?? I don't believe the Officer can confiscate that material in your bucket, because you have collected the material Lawfully using hand tools and at the point of collection the material becomes your Property.
I would like to emphasize the word "Your Property".
34 When fossicking materials become licensees property
(1) If fossicking materials lawfully collected under a licence are
the property of the State, the materials become the licensees
property on collection.
(2) However, the licensee must pay royalties on the fossicking
materials.
(3) Subsection (1) applies despite the following provisions
Mineral Resources Act 1989, section 8.
Forestry Act 1959, section 45
Water Act 2000, section 279.
So as far a i understand the Act., when the material is collected, then it becomes your property and you can deal with that material as you see fit, providing you do it lawfully in regards to any other Act.
G
Guest
There's a petition just gone up on Change.org to change the Qld fossicking laws.
Tim said:
done!!!
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Hi rotor, I'm Len, I started the petition here in QLD, have asked about sluices (river sluice) and was told yes we can, so long as the water comes from the natural flow of the creek.rotor said:G0lddigg@ said:
I just spoke to Brisbane office that put me through to Rockhampton office that put me through to Emerald office - got the distinct feeling they were passing the buck .....
Finally spoke to an inspector/warden (who knows) in Emerald who's answer as to whether a hand operated "Dry Blower" could be used was "YES". If it had a mechanical device attached - electric or petrol driven then NO, it was then deemed mechanical.
I asked him whether sluices were allowed and he said "I'll get back to you on that one" He wasn't too sure of a previous outcome concerning river sluices and will ring back this arvo.
I also asked him about shakers - I'm not entirely sure what a shaker is - is it a "Gold Shaking" table? in which case if it is then he said they were OK if not motorised .
I'll let you know the outcome
Hope that helps.
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