Living with Electric Vehicles

[user 4386]

"It’s also important to keep the batteries cool since the hotter they get, the more probable they are to explode. To maintain the temperature of the battery pack as low as reasonably achievable when the car is running, both Tesla and Ford circulate radiator-chilled coolant all through the battery pack".

Hmmm - will that be a factor at outback temperatures - keeping both the engine and the batteries cool. My radiator does not chill so well around Marble Bar.

Not against batteries - just aware that there are still an awful lot of issues to address. Probably all will be solvable - but only given time. I'll stay with hydrocarbons for now..

 

[Ridge Runner]

"It’s also important to keep the batteries cool since the hotter they get, the more probable they are to explode. To maintain the temperature of the battery pack as low as reasonably achievable when the car is running, both Tesla and Ford circulate radiator-chilled coolant all through the battery pack".

Hmmm - will that be a factor at outback temperatures - keeping both the engine and the batteries cool. My radiator does not chill so well around Marble Bar.

Not against batteries - just aware that there are still an awful lot of issues to address. Probably all will be solvable - but only given time. I'll stay with hydrocarbons for now..

In the past couple of years battery tech has vastly improved and 5 years from now they will be streets ahead from where they are now.

 

[Big Johno]

I, for one welcome our new electric vehicle overlords. It's going to happen whether you like it or not.

It will be an interesting exercise for all.
I went to an EV seminar last week where they had an international motoring Journo discussing EV cars and he bought a couple along to crawl over. He was a neutral presenter not favouring either way but he raised some amazing issues with EV that the average jo blo doesn't know ( me included)
Stuff like the car industry has been desperately trying to negotiate with the OZ gov to ensure there is infrastructure in place to deal with the changeover. eg California has just reached 100,000 charging stations, China leads the world with approx 1 million, Australia has 3,000, go figure. It was interesting to hear him as he was quoting a personal conversation with the General manager of Mercedes 3 years ago who said that EV was not the long term solution and wouldn't achieve anything but as the governments had set a deadline in Europe for 2030 the manufacturers have been forced to go down that path or go broke.
He also spoke of the restricted resources required for battery production and it is severe as there are approx 1 billion cars in the world and the current minerals required for batteries like cobalt, lithium etc is capping production at about 2 million per year. he also spoke about the recycling issues faced and showed photos of massive landfills in India where thousands of EV vehicles are being buried as they can't recycle the toxic batteries yet. He also showed stats of the fire issues where the burning batteries burn at 1,000 c degrees , very intense and where the EU had done fire tests on putting out EV batteries , 3 tests where the average amount of water required to put out an EV battery was 60,000 litres which is a lot for a fire appliance, the problem is the batteries are extremely toxic and so the water becomes toxic and then the water has to be dealt with or it will kill anything it comes in contact with. The EU decided to do this test after Tesla claimed it took 16,000 lites to put out the fire to get it pass the strict EU regs.
The interesting thing for me was an example he gave of his sister who owned a 10 year old Prius and the battery had finally given up about a month ago, she was quoted $7,800 to replace the battery but the current value of the car is only approx $10,000 so she is trying to decide to replace battery or take the vehicle to the wreckers, where it will be stripped of panel parts and the rest sent to landfill in India., I won't bore you with the rest of the info it got worse , and I was thinking of getting a hybrid.
ciao

 

[user 4386]

Sci-Fi writer Arthur Clarke on evolution of revolutionary ideas:
•It will never work – pure fantasy!
•It might work ….but it is not worth doing
•I said it was a good idea all along!

 

[Hawkear]

Anyone know if Electric Vehicles add to the EMF interference on our detectors. If so what sort of range would that be?

 

[Mal57]

The problem with everyone needing to acquire an EV is that we'd better get ready for another TAX to improve the electrical grid because it can't currently handle the extra demand that will be placed on it when everyone plugs their car in every day when they return home from work.

 

[Mal57]

I, for one welcome our new electric vehicle overlords. It's going to happen whether you like it or not.

The problem with everyone needing to acquire an EV is that we'd better get ready for another TAX to improve the electrical grid because it can't currently handle the extra demand that will be placed on it when everyone plugs their car in every day when they return home from work.

 

[user 4386]

The problem with everyone needing to acquire an EV is that we'd better get ready for another TAX to improve the electrical grid because it can't currently handle the extra demand that will be placed on it when everyone plugs their car in every day when they return home from work.

And of course for the lack of fuel excise income....

 

[Solid Luck]

The problem with everyone needing to acquire an EV is that we'd better get ready for another TAX to improve the electrical grid because it can't currently handle the extra demand that will be placed on it when everyone plugs their car in every day when they return home from work.

Victoria is already charging owners a few cents per k.
I'm sure there are plenty of extra charges/ taxes coming our way.
It's inevitable. Not that I'm happy about that.

 

[EVIE/BEE]

Sounds like perpetual motion is just around the corner.

 

[user 4386]

Victoria is already charging owners a few cents per k.
I'm sure there are plenty of extra charges/ taxes coming our way.
It's inevitable. Not that I'm happy about that.

None of us are - buit we are all happy to drive on smooth road surfaces that have to be maintained, and to have extra lanes etc to relieve congestion. It has to be paid for and we are already paying with fuel excise (the main difference is that overall electric car "fuel" costs will be lower once other coast issues are resolved by technology and volume of sales. But I am still on hydrocarbons for now...

I think many of us have moved from Arthur Clarkes stage one (pure fantasy- above) and are struggling with stage 2 of costs and practicality at present - just watch me adopt stage 3 when the time comes! What concerns me most is countries makin ot compulsory before they have thought out all the logistical problems fully - which I think is why Norway has decreed no more hydrocarbon cars while its state petroleum company is still pegging oil leases in the Arctic as the sea ice melts.

 

[Hawkear]

In the past couple of years battery tech has vastly improved and 5 years from now they will be streets ahead from where they are now.

Yes there has been steady improvement in battery efficiency in the past punctuated by the occasional technology leap eg from lead acid to lithium. I would disagree with the “vastly improved“ description rather to one of a steady development of a technology once established.
With lithium technology we should see even further improvements into the future but a “streets ahead“ jump, I wouldn’t bet my future on it.
“Moores law” observed that the advancement of technology ( specifically for semiconductors) increased by a given factor every few years, however since 2010 there has been a noticeable slowing of this advancement.
This observation when applied to lithium battery technology advancement may run into the same plateauing as has been observed in other technologies.

 

[EVIE/BEE]

I posted this before but worth repeating.

Tesla's 'super charger' is a marketing gimmick.

A battery can only charge so fast. All batteries have internal resistance in them. The Li-ion battery is no exception. All batteries using the same chemistry are the same. They all have the same limitations.

The amount of energy (in Joules or your favorite unit), to move a car of a given size and weight a given distance does not change much. It is that energy that you have to put into the battery during refueling of an electric car.

There are two ways to do it: high voltage or high current (or both!).

High voltage systems are dangerous to use. Arc-over is a very real danger in handling such connections. Most electric cars use 120V or 240V to charge them for this reason.

So you are left with high current. This means wire size and terminal connector size is important.

If you were to ram that kind of energy into an electric car in the same few minutes it takes to refuel a gasoline car, you would need a wire so big you couldn't lift it (never mind the connector!). The batteries themselves would not accept the current either, literally leaping out of the car on fire (or just setting the whole car on fire!).

So it takes hours, not minutes to refuel such a car. That will never change. A Joule is a Joule. It still will require that same number of Joules to move the car of a given weight a given distance.

Lead-acid batteries are among the lowest internal resistance of any battery. They charge the quickest for this reason. You STILL can't ram that kind of current into such a battery. You will bend the plates (shorting them) and boil the electrolyte away (assuming you could lift the cable and actually connect it.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I posted this before but worth repeating.

Tesla's 'super charger' is a marketing gimmick.

A battery can only charge so fast. All batteries have internal resistance in them. The Li-ion battery is no exception. All batteries using the same chemistry are the same. They all have the same limitations.

The amount of energy (in Joules or your favorite unit), to move a car of a given size and weight a given distance does not change much. It is that energy that you have to put into the battery during refueling of an electric car.

There are two ways to do it: high voltage or high current (or both!).

High voltage systems are dangerous to use. Arc-over is a very real danger in handling such connections. Most electric cars use 120V or 240V to charge them for this reason.

So you are left with high current. This means wire size and terminal connector size is important.

If you were to ram that kind of energy into an electric car in the same few minutes it takes to refuel a gasoline car, you would need a wire so big you couldn't lift it (never mind the connector!). The batteries themselves would not accept the current either, literally leaping out of the car on fire (or just setting the whole car on fire!).

So it takes hours, not minutes to refuel such a car. That will never change. A Joule is a Joule. It still will require that same number of Joules to move the car of a given weight a given distance.

Lead-acid batteries are among the lowest internal resistance of any battery. They charge the quickest for this reason. You STILL can't ram that kind of current into such a battery. You will bend the plates (shorting them) and boil the electrolyte away (assuming you could lift the cable and actually connect it.

You've got that totally wrong, On the News on BBC UK interviewed A Company in Israel who now has Lithium batterries that charge in 5 to 6 minutes compared to 4 to 10 hours, And Lead Acid Batteries don't charge faster than any other tech out there, It's a well known fact that Lead Acid Batteries are the Slowest tech and have the longest charge times of any battery on the market, Even AGM charges 2 to 3x faster than lead acid batteries.

 

[saau]

The heat issue is the biggest problem in Oz when discharging and is why Tesla is working on 4680s, but they are really struggling ATM, digital BATs will have no heat issues - charge or dis-charge.

https://www.torquenews.com/14093/tesla-18650-2170-and-4680-battery-cell-comparison-basics
I have LTO packs that can take approx. $250AUD of power in a few hours, imagine these used in a hotel room overnight, the scary part with them is the cables start to get hot ( cables in the walls ) if you plug in more than 1

Plus the cycles go up to 20K 4 LTO not 1K 4 1865 / 2170

 

[Ridge Runner]

The heat issue is the biggest problem in Oz when discharging and is why Tesla is working on 4680s, but they are really struggling ATM, digital BATs will have no heat issues - charge or dis-charge.

https://www.torquenews.com/14093/tesla-18650-2170-and-4680-battery-cell-comparison-basics
I have LTO packs that can take approx. $250AUD of power in a few hours, imagine these used in a hotel room overnight, the scary part with them is the cables start to get hot ( cables in the walls ) if you plug in more than 1

Plus the cycles go up to 20K 4 LTO not 1K 4 1865 / 2170

This new tech I mentioned remains very cool even during mega fast charging,

 

[saau]

I'm sure u r 100% correct, notice the 240v 10A cables in the walls r the weakest link when charging LTO packs.

Classic example of the Tech is changing daily, so hard to keep up with.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I'm sure u r 100% correct, notice the 240v 10A cables in the walls r the weakest link when charging LTO packs.

Classic example of the Tech is changing daily, so hard to keep up with.

The UK standard is 3120wh / 13A and the Shore power hookup for my Van/Camper is 16A,

These new Batteries will change the way we do things for sure, where they charge from dead flat to full in 5 minutes, they first mentioned these batteries in Februart 2021 and now they have tested them we should see them hit the market soon, They Dwarf anything Tesla has by a mile.

 

[saau]

13A may be an issue in Oz

I charge all my 200+ 2170s via the mains before I head out on a trip and then top up via solar, I have deved my own BMSs and soft. 2 cut out way before manuf. low water mark so try to never completely discharge so I can top up quickly on solar. But, not getting out of bed at 3:30AM to swap means sometimes packs get 'fully' dis.

I'm concerned about the fact that even the old 1865 are more energy dense than dynamite and I'm guessing 100K are being moved around by courier per hr. just hoping that no one fully charges these cells before dispatch. Poor courier may find out the hard way.

 

[Ridge Runner]

13A may be an issue in Oz

I charge all my 200+ 2170s via the mains before I head out on a trip and then top up via solar, I have deved my own BMSs and soft. 2 cut out way before manuf. low water mark so try to never completely discharge so I can top up quickly on solar. But, not getting out of bed at 3:30AM to swap means sometimes packs get 'fully' dis.

I'm concerned about the fact that even the old 1865 are more energy dense than dynamite and I'm guessing 100K are being moved around by courier per hr. just hoping that no one fully charges these cells before dispatch. Poor courier may find out the hard way.

This past year I have seen some really good things hit the market in terms of 12v and 240v chargers, The Charger that came with my big Lithium pack/SoGen is about 217Wh but now they sell a 500wh DC charger and a 500Wh AC charger which means I can charge my Lithium pack in 3 to 3 and a half hours from flat, and another good thing is the input voltage of my SoGen is between 16 - 60v (64v).