DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES and BUSH POWER

[Ridge Runner]

just read some of the comments in here re Lithium batteries and temps etc and cold charging and overheat charging and relying on the BMS and the temp sensors alone Wonders how many are running VICTRON SMART BATTERY SENSE to protect them from that happening with their mppts As sensors fail overtime or do not work depending on the battery builder see you tube for countless examples of cheaper lithium batteries where the temp protection has failed or was never there to start with .

Yeah I saw one or 2 like that last week, Those batteries I saw look like the real deal and afterwards It shot down my ideas of buying a cheaper Lithium battery altogether, Not only that but some of them were not LiFePo4 and they are the best ones to have, Unless a Lithium battery is LifePo4 you don't want it and there are many different types out there so it is easy to get stung by less than honest dealers.

 

[condor22]

Here's an excerpt from Battery University;

Prismatic cell are encased in aluminum or steel for stability. Jelly-rolled or stacked, the cell is space-efficient but can be costlier to manufacture than the cylindrical cell. Modern prismatic cells are used in the electric powertrain and energy storage systems.

My 2 tips for LiFePO4 - 1. Make sure it is Prismatic construction. 2. Suffer the extra 2 kg of weight and get one in a steel case. (It can't catch fire in the event of.

The biggest problem, most people have with LiFePO4 batteries re there cycle life is that like other things, they haven't been around long enough, with the correct charging to get the real life data.

Many specifications of devices are from rugged, fast testing, done in a lab in a few months or less, to simulate years of use. We need them for more than a few months and use them in the real world, not a lab and not in controlled conditions.

Bit like the old fridge debate, we all have our own bias as to what brand. I bought an Engel 28 years ago, still going strong, "used in the real world". No it's not digital, doesn't have a light inside or an inbuilt temp gauge. A wireless gauge and a torch/headlight fix that. When other brands have been around and lasted that long my bias "might" change, lol. It'll probably outlast me. :beer: :beer: :beer:

 

[Ridge Runner]

Here's an excerpt from Battery University;

Prismatic cell are encased in aluminum or steel for stability. Jelly-rolled or stacked, the cell is space-efficient but can be costlier to manufacture than the cylindrical cell. Modern prismatic cells are used in the electric powertrain and energy storage systems.

My 2 tips for LiFePO4 - 1. Make sure it is Prismatic construction. 2. Suffer the extra 2 kg of weight and get one in a steel case. (It can't catch fire in the event of.

The biggest problem, most people have with LiFePO4 batteries re there cycle life is that like other things, they haven't been around long enough, with the correct charging to get the real life data.

Many specifications of devices are from rugged, fast testing, done in a lab in a few months or less, to simulate years of use. We need them for more than a few months and use them in the real world, not a lab and not in controlled conditions.

Bit like the old fridge debate, we all have our own bias as to what brand. I bought an Engel 28 years ago, still going strong, "used in the real world". No it's not digital, doesn't have a light inside or an inbuilt temp gauge. A wireless gauge and a torch/headlight fix that. When other brands have been around and lasted that long my bias "might" change, lol. It'll probably outlast me. :beer: :beer: :beer:

What you say about the old Engel also applies to batteries, In an off grid situation where Solar panels are set up to collect the most amount of sun then There is no reason not to use Lead Acid or AGM both will work for 5 to 10 years sometimes longer If looked after which sort of matches the Age often quoted for Lithium base products. As pointed out before most fridges like lithium batteries have not been on the market long enough although I know of some brands that are still going strong after 17+ years and given the chance there is no reason you BM shouldn't last for 28 years either,

My Lead Acid Deep Cycle Batteries have been chugging away for over 3 years 8 months and still read over 13.25v a week later after being taken off the charger. My only gripe with them is how slow they charge, Sure I can hit them with a 35A Charger that normally hits them with about 18-20A to start with when charged in pairs and they can reach max voltage in about 3 to 4 hours but we all know the problems in doing that.

The reason I went with the Dometic LiFePo4 packs is because being a respected brand I could trust them to put in there what they said was in there, At first I thought they were too small but at 80% I get to use 64Ah out of them which is nice but when you consider that they charge more than 4 X quicker than lead acid or AGM means I would need in excess of 512Ah to achieve the same useable power If I was to use lead acid batteries if I was to use the lead acid batteries to 50% SOC, The Draw back of larger lithium packs is the amount of solar they need to power them and the won't charge to 100% from a standard 12v out let where the smaller packs will.

 

[condor22]

The Draw back of larger lithium packs is the amount of solar they need to power them and the won't charge to 100% from a standard 12v out let where the smaller packs will.

Not sure I agree, I use around 35 AH a day in my van and the 200 W of solar usually charge my AGM by mid afternoon in a VIC winter. Keep in mind that an AGM smart charge from a Victron, slows the current down as the battery nears 85% charge (Absorption).

If I used 35 AH from a Lithium, the panels will still output the same, but achieve the charge quicker as there is no Absorption mode. In which case they'll reach near 100% earlier.

 

[Ridge Runner]

The Draw back of larger lithium packs is the amount of solar they need to power them and the won't charge to 100% from a standard 12v out let where the smaller packs will.

Not sure I agree, I use around 35 AH a day in my van and the 200 W of solar usually charge my AGM by mid afternoon in a VIC winter. Keep in mind that an AGM smart charge from a Victron, slows the current down as the battery nears 85% charge (Absorption).

If I used 35 AH from a Lithium, the panels will still output the same, but achieve the charge quicker as there is no Absorption mode. In which case they'll reach near 100% earlier.

well with these 40Ah/512w packs I have found that they will charge quickly even while they are running the ARB 47 and the only they are not charging is at night and as soon as the Sun comes up or the vehicle is started they are topped up within an hour or so, At night the 47 is only going to use between 10 and 30% depending if I am using it as a fridge or a freezer, 10% is around 4Ah and 30% is about 12Ah So the 40Ah pack is only going have to power it for 8 to 10 hours maybe 12 ???

A single 40Ah won't run the 78L for 24 hours in freezer mode, In fridge mode it's fine because it only uses between 0.5 to 1.07Ah.

The little CDF18 will run for over 4 days on it in fridge mode.

 

[condor22]

Standby for my next trip, running the Engel (fridge) and the Brass Monkey (Freezer). Gonna be an interesting couple of days. Will set both up 2 days before departure and 2 on arrival. Be ok driving with the DC-DC, but will check morning usage.

 

[where the nugget]

Here's an excerpt from Battery University;

Prismatic cell are encased in aluminum or steel for stability. Jelly-rolled or stacked, the cell is space-efficient but can be costlier to manufacture than the cylindrical cell. Modern prismatic cells are used in the electric powertrain and energy storage systems.

My 2 tips for LiFePO4 - 1. Make sure it is Prismatic construction. 2. Suffer the extra 2 kg of weight and get one in a steel case. (It can't catch fire in the event of.

The biggest problem, most people have with LiFePO4 batteries re there cycle life is that like other things, they haven't been around long enough, with the correct charging to get the real life data.

Many specifications of devices are from rugged, fast testing, done in a lab in a few months or less, to simulate years of use. We need them for more than a few months and use them in the real world, not a lab and not in controlled conditions.

Bit like the old fridge debate, we all have our own bias as to what brand. I bought an Engel 28 years ago, still going strong, "used in the real world". No it's not digital, doesn't have a light inside or an inbuilt temp gauge. A wireless gauge and a torch/headlight fix that. When other brands have been around and lasted that long my bias "might" change, lol. It'll probably outlast me. :beer: :beer: :beer:

What you say about the old Engel also applies to batteries, In an off grid situation where Solar panels are set up to collect the most amount of sun then There is no reason not to use Lead Acid or AGM both will work for 5 to 10 years sometimes longer If looked after which sort of matches the Age often quoted for Lithium base products. As pointed out before most fridges like lithium batteries have not been on the market long enough although I know of some brands that are still going strong after 17+ years and given the chance there is no reason you BM shouldn't last for 28 years either,

My Lead Acid Deep Cycle Batteries have been chugging away for over 3 years 8 months and still read over 13.25v a week later after being taken off the charger. My only gripe with them is how slow they charge, Sure I can hit them with a 35A Charger that normally hits them with about 18-20A to start with when charged in pairs and they can reach max voltage in about 3 to 4 hours but we all know the problems in doing that.

The reason I went with the Dometic LiFePo4 packs is because being a respected brand I could trust them to put in there what they said was in there, At first I thought they were too small but at 80% I get to use 64Ah out of them which is nice but when you consider that they charge more than 4 X quicker than lead acid or AGM means I would need in excess of 512Ah to achieve the same useable power If I was to use lead acid batteries if I was to use the lead acid batteries to 50% SOC, The Draw back of larger lithium packs is the amount of solar they need to power them and the won't charge to 100% from a standard 12v out let where the smaller packs will.

The part that highlighted a common comment a simple fix to a common problem and that a current and temp sensor fixes hence why most good solar controller mobs sell the sensor as the one build into BMS do not help a MPPT or PWN in anyway to charge a lithium battery to full. where with a sensor added that feeds information back to the solar controller it getting true readings etc and adjusts to fully charge the lithium battery.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Standby for my next trip, running the Engel (fridge) and the Brass Monkey (Freezer). Gonna be an interesting couple of days. Will set both up 2 days before departure and 2 on arrival. Be ok driving with the DC-DC, but will check morning usage.

Yes I think that is the best combo,

When it comes to using the power I tried it using the 78 as a freezer and the 18 as a fridge which is fine for month long or more trips if you are going to be charging via a DC to DC plus Solar but for normal trip where you park up having the right charging setup is crucial,

Best set up for shorter trips is the 47 as a fridge and the 18 as a freezer,

The bigger 78 uses little power as a fridge as little as 0.45Ah but in freezer mode set at -16 on average it will use around 1.35Ah which is 32.8Ah per 24 hours where as the 47 will use 25.283Ah per 24 hours when set to -14*c which is about a 7.5Ah Saving every day.

I love the room of the 78 and how well it cools having the bigger BD-50 Compressor but when set to below -12 you start to see a bigger power draw, As a fridge there is very little difference in the power draw compared to a 40L fridge.

 

[Ded Driver]

Going back to my earlier post about flattening my LC battery, my DC-DC charger is a 45A unit, so with the alternator switched in, it recharges it in just over 2hrs.
.
100Ahr battery .. 45A x 2hrs = 90Ahrs

 

[Nightjar]

Final preparations almost complete for a month+ trip beginning on or around 17/04 and home at end of May.
Oil change, all filters renewed and front wheel bearings adjusted on ute.
Tested both Engels 80L dual & 39L on 240V & 12V. Generator purring. (Generator is rarely run, only if cloud cover has reduced solar input or we haven't driven any distance to get top up from ute alternator. (No DC DC charger.)
Caravan wheel bearings checked and adjusted and suspension greased.
Fridge tested Ok.
The 39L running as a freezer holds enough frozen meat & vegie for half the trip, freezer compartments in other two fridges holds the remainder. (No need to for trips to restock)
Now to sit down and make a list of food to keep us going at our camp 1000k's from home.
A month+ in remote WA goldfields, hopefully finding :goldnugget: or three away from all the doom and gloom in the rat race.
Another trip like this one would make up for the lost 2020.

 

[Jaros]

Yes good work with bearings. They are very important and a lot of people forget them. I had the camper bearings done and it cost me $100 plus parts. An army mechanic came out via Airtasker and removed the bearings which i took to Supercheap to get the identical bearings and next day he came out and installed them using army grease as well as sandblasting everything that needed it. Very pleased.
I thought it was a good thing to do as the camper had been around Oz in 2007 and out to Thanes Ck a dozen or so times.
Good luck with your trip Peter and may it be fruitful.

 

[Nightjar]

Thanks Jaros, hopefully a few success photos later in the year.
Doing the oil & filter change + the wheel bearing grease and adjustment myself has payed for our months groceries, a win win.

 

[Jaros]

I do the oil and filter twice a year-a habit I have had all my life with my cars. Anything more serious goes to a mechanic who has serviced my Pathy since new.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Final preparations almost complete for a month+ trip beginning on or around 17/04 and home at end of May.
Oil change, all filters renewed and front wheel bearings adjusted on ute.
Tested both Engels 80L dual & 39L on 240V & 12V. Generator purring. (Generator is rarely run, only if cloud cover has reduced solar input or we haven't driven any distance to get top up from ute alternator. (No DC DC charger.)
Caravan wheel bearings checked and adjusted and suspension greased.
Fridge tested Ok.
The 39L running as a freezer holds enough frozen meat & vegie for half the trip, freezer compartments in other two fridges holds the remainder. (No need to for trips to restock)
Now to sit down and make a list of food to keep us going at our camp 1000k's from home.
A month+ in remote WA goldfields, hopefully finding :goldnugget: or three away from all the doom and gloom in the rat race.
Another trip like this one would make up for the lost 2020.

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/1414/1616717315_imgp1151.jpg

Live the Dream NJ, Hope you hit the big one, sounds like a heck of an adventure, :Y:

 

[Nightjar]

Live the Dream NJ, Hope you hit the big one, sounds like a heck of an adventure, :Y:

RR, Been doing it every year since the 80's sometimes up to 6 weeks at a time. 2020 we missed out getting away.
Yes, still hoping for the big one. ?

 

[oldtimerROB]

Rob if you have the Battery power those Greenhouse/Glasshouse heaters are good for small areas, I am fitting one in mine, If you have Solar power should not be an issue, you can buy them from 300mm to 2.4m in length and are the safest option,

Those Cheap Diesel Heaters are Brilliant and are very cheap to run, and SAFE, I have seen them keep a van warm when it's -40*c outside and about 25* in the Van.

I have also just bought some 12v electric blankets, which makes a good backup plan.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQSPD4V/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A4RM6YKJVHXHA&psc=1

Hope that helps.

Ridge Runner, thanks for the info. I have not seen the greenhouse heater on eBay but will try the internet.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Rob if you have the Battery power those Greenhouse/Glasshouse heaters are good for small areas, I am fitting one in mine, If you have Solar power should not be an issue, you can buy them from 300mm to 2.4m in length and are the safest option,

Those Cheap Diesel Heaters are Brilliant and are very cheap to run, and SAFE, I have seen them keep a van warm when it's -40*c outside and about 25* in the Van.

I have also just bought some 12v electric blankets, which makes a good backup plan.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQSPD4V/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A4RM6YKJVHXHA&psc=1

Hope that helps.

Ridge Runner, thanks for the info. I have not seen the greenhouse heater on eBay but will try the internet.

Here they are, I bought the 12"/300mm version which measures a total length of 16" or 407mm and is thermostat controlled,

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=tube+heaters

 

[Ridge Runner]

I'm testing that 35L Snomaster out at the moment powered by the Dometic PLB-40, I am hoping it will only consume 15% of the power in a 12 hour period which is what it would have to do during the Night when camping until the Sun comes up, If it will stay around that figure I might fit it in the Van,

There are some things I like about this little fridge and some I hate, I love the speed it cools down at and the fact that it can be set to -22*c, I like that it has 3 power settings being Hi, Auto and Low, But the best thing about it is how stable the temperature remains during the On/Off cycles,

When I set it to 2*c it will run and then cut off at around 1.2 to 1.1*c then it will drop slowly to about 0.8*c and when it warms up it will power up when the Temp reaches 2.0*c with a maximum Temp Swing of 0.8 or 1.2*c depending if you count the Drop once it has shut off, Which makes it the most Accurate/Stable fridge I have tested, Where as Medical fridges are meant to be able to stay within 2*c to 8*c so they can have a temp swing of 3*c+/- with a preferred temp of around 5*c, So with the little Snomaster having a Temp Swing of 0.8*c makes it more than Ideal for medicine storage.

Hoping the power Draw on 12v "Low Setting" stays between 15 to 17% then it will be ok to use with the PLB, Anything over that then I might as well use the ARB 78L,

The power Draw on AC and DC "Hi" are woeful, I measured it today running on AC and it only runs on HI when running on AC and it was chewing a whopping 98.4w, Even the Big ARB with the bigger Danfos BD-50 Compressor don't chew that much power. Where as the Snomaster is meant to have their 66watt Compressor but the numbers don't match the 66watts So maybe that is what it uses on the Low 12v DC mode, At 98.4w that is a huge amount of power when you consider that my 244L house Fridge Freezer chews between 92 to about 120w whilst running MAX.

The little Snomaster is a nice little fridge but the Cheap Plastics and the Hi DC setting and the AC power draw is the real killer for this fridge, Other than that it is a great little fridge and due to it's Spot On Temperature Swings makes it the perfect fridge for Oz Travel but if I was buying one in Australia I would be looking and one of the Metal models they make like the 40L or the end opening 42L model. They also make a 56L Twin Bin version too but I would rather the Single 60L. All of which come with A Solar powered Remote Control and the Fridge Cover.

 

[condor22]

Answer to Q from the Blue Tick phone thread - RR

75/115

I have 2 x 100 W panels - max output is a total of 13.6 amps (not rated but measured) which is actually more than their combined rating. My mate has the software on his laptop and the lead to interface.

He's reset Absorption to 14.1 V and the Float at 13.7. As it is not a Lithium profile and it can't be set to a constant mode voltage, these are the closest it can get and the internal BMS of the battery manages it anyway. I also discovered that my 240 V charger being a later model, doesn't have a power supply mode and the closest it can go to those voltages is the GEL mode at 14.2 Absorption and 13.7 float. So, pretty close to the Victron and more than acceptable for this battery.

I was fortunate that when I picked up the battery, the Chinese Tech Rep was visiting and he uploaded a firmware upgrade to my battery. It's effect - When the on/off is switched on it shows battery health and a bar graph of the State of Charge. However this display times out after about 15 seconds and after that unless you quick press the button there is no indication of the battery being on or off.

The firmware upgrade still times out as before, but the battery tick LED showing battery is ok, now flashes once every 5 seconds, showing the battery is on. To turn off press and hold the button for 3 seconds. This is a great function as when my van is in storage I charge it to 100%, then switch off, this disconnects the battery from the terminal posts effectively disconnecting all loads, chargers and gauges = no parasitic load. Six months later it will still be near full and only need a quick top up. Unlike an AGM which with my monitor would need to remain on charge, mains or solar.

Also great as when I move in the next few months, I won't have any 240 VAC available to the van and I can also turn the solar panels off at their circuit breakers.

 

[condor22]

Report on my Lithium upgrade and not the only upgrade. The following is done in the driveway as I'm not away and won't be for some time.

I charged the 100 AH Pylontech to 100% a few days ago, turned off the 240 VAC charger and the solar circuit breakers were open. I also switched the battery off.

The first comment is; I use a Projecta battery monitor, 100 A shunt and the display is powered from the battery. When the battery is turned off it cuts power to the terminals of the battery, so the monitor loses its memory and needs to be reset. In the driveway I'm not concerned by this, however when away it wouldn't get turned off unless there was a good reason.

After around 4 days, the battery was still holding 13.2 volts when I turned it back on.

To the second upgrade; my original LED TV is only MPEG2 codec video and as such doesn't work on ch 31, 32 or 76 (SBS & 7 Flix) as they transmit MP4. My cheap fix was a 12 V set top box that is MP4. The downside was an extra power cable, antenna connection and AV cable as well as a small extra power load.

Today I bought a new, slightly bigger and Smart TV for the van. It has the same power consumption rating as the old one of 48 W.

From previously noting on many occasions re the AGM battery, the TV used 3.0 amps when first turned on and around 3.2 amps later in the evening. The reason for the increase is when on the AGM, fully charged the voltage was around 12.9 no load. When the TV was on, the V went to 12.6 volts and later in the evening down to 12.4 or 12.5. As we know V x A = W, so if the TV uses the same W and the V goes down, then to balance the equation the A will go up. Also, the AGM V will reduce as it's capacity reduces. Therefore the longer the TV is on, the lower the battery V becomes, the higher the A draw will be.

more.....