Australian Medical Experiments on Baboons

[user 4386]

Ridge runner - I said "Many of the medical developments required use of animals" - I did not say all, nor did I cut and paste. I mentioned the other things because all sorts of scientific research was being attacked (eg colliders, mammoths), and I was pointing out that the ultimate benefit of much primary research is commonly not obvious to the public.

Deepseeker - as I said, it needs to be minimised, but if our families die from coronavirus because we were not willing to use animal testing, I'm not sure that your argument would receive a lot of support (new viruses will always keep coming, we cannot survive solely on past research).

Testing on cosmetics was also mentioned - not sure if everyone is aware that no testing for cosmetics has occurred in Australia for years (which I fully support), and more recently the government has banned the use of animal data derived overseas in manufacture of cosmetics here (although I doubt they could police that meaningfully). Australia has some of the strictest laws on animal testing in the world. Even medical testing requires not only proof that any pain will be minimised, and evidence for how, but also it must pass the "can it even be justified" test. The source of all animals used must have a clear paper trail. Better than most of the world by far....

https://www.rspca.org.au/take-action/animal-testing
https://www.smh.com.au/environment/...nimal-tests-in-cosmetics-20190227-p510jo.html

You are fully entitled to your opinions, as am I, and I understand where you are coming from - it involves playing off one evil against another (mass human deaths versus a few animals used in experiments). Use of intelligent animals, especially primates, do raise emotions (in me also - I have enough trouble with them being eaten as "bush meat" in central Africa where I used to work) - but so does early death of my loved ones. Pandemics are a serious issue - in the past they killed 40% or so of the population of Europe (and presumably elsewhere) - a serious one could turn our civilization upside down, and any human ethics would be the first casualty.

 

[Ridge Runner]

disgraceful *******s!...... i'd like to see a few of these empathy less doctors have it done to them or their family. i f@#%ing hate this kind of ********. if i knew the addresses of these butt holes i'd post them online and see what experiment happens to them................ humans screw everything up in this world. mostly the white fella.... yes im white too.

I agree but then how do we find a solution to this cronovirus or what ever they are working on, Are we prepared to sit back and watch out loved ones die in order to save the monkeys ??, It's a double edged sword either way you look at it.

 

[Deepseeker]

But Goldierocks, lets not conflate things please. The Baboons at the centre of this discussion are not being used for Bush meat, or Coronavirus research either. They are being used for the research of Reproductive Issues, Gestational Diabetes, Kidney Disease, and Pregnancy Issues. Infants as well as Mothers will inevitably suffer as a result of whatever their experiments are. My own Father died just a few weeks ago from complications caused by Diabetes, and I would not want a cure found by experiments on Primates no more than he would have. By all means try new procedures or medicines on consenting adults.

 

[Booney]

Im all for medical / medicinal experiments on humans . How much do they pay , will it make me see little people ? layful:

 

[numpty]

disgraceful *******s!...... i'd like to see a few of these empathy less doctors have it done to them or their family. i f@#%ing hate this kind of ********. if i knew the addresses of these butt holes i'd post them online and see what experiment happens to them................ humans screw everything up in this world. mostly the white fella.... yes im white too.

I agree but then how do we find a solution to this cronovirus or what ever they are working on, Are we prepared to sit back and watch out loved ones die in order to save the monkeys ??, It's a double edged sword either way you look at it.

yes it's a very hard call when it can kill us but i just think why not just test it on people with the virus instead of making some poor animal sick and suffer.

they already have infected blood so why not test the blood and try and see what they can achieve. i know someone in animal care and have been shown pictures of what goes on in these animal testing places, when you see a beagle that has had most of his back leg burnt with flesh hanging off and it was a horrific wound i can't and wont approve of testing like this and if i knew the people that do this i'd most likely go to jail after i tested something on them. i know it's legal but i think i'd take action and get myself in trouble. i just love all animals, sorry if i piss anyone off thats not my intention.

 

[user 4386]

But Goldierocks, lets not conflate things please. The Baboons at the centre of this discussion are not being used for Bush meat, or Coronavirus research either. They are being used for the research of Reproductive Issues, Gestational Diabetes, Kidney Disease, and Pregnancy Issues. Infants as well as Mothers will inevitably suffer as a result of whatever their experiments are. My own Father died just a few weeks ago from complications caused by Diabetes, and I would not want a cure found by experiments on Primates no more than he would have. By all means try new procedures or medicines on consenting adults.

Sure, but the discussion has been about banning use of animal testing, not about banning it for some things and not others. I can accept a degree of control on what things are used for, but that is a different discussion to what you started. It becomes not a discussion of whether or not primates be used, but for what purposes use is justified (and this is part of the ethical testing processes - in that case it is a case of where one puts the boundary). However monkeys (usually more macaques) are commonly used to test flu vaccines and presumably coronaviruses, so it is quite a reasonable discussion to be having right now, not something abstract and unlikely.

It is not reasonable to compare our current licencing with Mengele's actions, any more than to ignore the fact that we are (in some cases) comparing only a small number of primate lives with tens or hundreds of millions of human lives saved. It is not a case of you or your father deciding whether they would sacrifice lots of baboons just to save their own life (I am diabetic and would also not consider it justified if it were my life alone).

I do question whether those who emphasize animal lives over humans are really considering how much empathy they have for humans (who, when dealing with whole populations, one would think should be empathised with first). We make such judgements in war (our humans versus their humans - as with Hiroshima), we make it with survival of species (shooting of rhino horn poachers on sight to prevent wiping rhinos out). It is not as simple as putting humans first in all situations, but the overall greater good (prevention of mass human deaths, saving an entire species from human predators). Even a cure for diabetes would save hundreds of millions of human lives - it is a scourge of the Third World and soon also will be in the First World. The choice is not one of wiping out (and yes, causing some suffering) of whole species of monkeys, but of a small number of monkeys/apes.

 

[Greenhornet_au]

Oooo...

We have just gotten a new dog, family member now, loved by 4 kids and my wife and I (not the ducks though).

If it became dangerous to the kids or others by way of attack or biting - if it cant be retrained or sorted, I would put it down.
You just can not have that liability of a child or person being hurt or worse.

IF it was possible that our dog was the only way to test a "cure" for Kato's medical issue (and millions of other people)
then the dog would sadly become a test subject.

We eat animals, and unfortunately for them, they are lower on the food chain than us.
I DO NOT condone cruelty or torture, but for humans to not suffer and diseases to be cured, I accept there are certain costs
and those may be to other species.

BUT it has also happened the in Human trials, people die, children have died in trials looking for a cure to Kato's medical condition,
adults die in trials for vaccines and drugs too.
I have been to the 'coal face' to see and learn about her thing and what is being done, if they find a cure for her, then the flip side
is they will be able to cure Diabetes too, and a few other kidney/adrenal gland things too.
:/

I would rather that it is another species than human.

Maybe we can trot out the aliens in Area 51 for testing ??
:8

 

[Deepseeker]

Well, if we are talking type 2 diabetes goldierocks, then for many it's a scourge brought on by themselves. Obese people who stuff their faces with excessive sugary & fatty foods and won't exercise, bring it on themselves in the same way that smokers do. I don't wish any harm on either of them, but we each make our own choices on how we live our lives. Baboons have no such choice, and may the scientists who perform their experiments on them die screaming themselves from rectal cancer. I think that about concludes my rant, Thank you all for your contributions, and to all of those who voted. :Y:

 

[sand surfer]

Im all for medical / medicinal experiments on humans . How much do they pay , will it make me see little people ? layful:

Tried it booney they don't pay you, you just get the drugs for free,migraine headache medication,and no you don't get to see the little people you just step over things that are not there the next day :lol:

 

[madtuna]

Point taken Goldierocks, but they are still Primates, not rats or mice. And if we are going to split hairs MT, Baboons don't have a colored Arse, I think you are referring to Mandrills. They too were once considered a type of Baboon until relatively recently. But, all this hair splitting regarding Phylum, Class, Order and Suborder etc., is as Goldierocks has so rightly pointed out, irrelevant to the argument.

Kill to eradicate pests, feed ourselves, protect our crops, by all means so long as it's done as humanely as we are capable of. (By the way MT, I admired what you did in an earlier post when you said you only killed a certain amount of Camels in a mob and some other forum member seemed to think he would have got more. You're obviously a responsible shooter, killing 6 humanely with a clean shot beats shooting 12 with some running off with injuries to die a slow and painful death).

But Primates? I didn't know we did this kind of crap in Australia, and the fact that so many people didn't know just goes to show what a dirty little secret it is. The fact these institutions are "licensed" to carry out their experiments, is as irrelevant as Dr Mengele being licensed by the Nazis to experiment on humans.

Dude...my comments re experimenting on ugly butt baboons was tongue in cheek. Also pretty sure the one I saw legging it up the footpath closely followed by the two chicky babes had a bright red pooter!
My stand is, no way do I condone experimenting on animals for cosmetics and crap like that, but medical for the good of humanity or for the species if it done as humanely and as painlessly as possible then as much as I find it unsettling or upsetting its a necessity.

 

[user 4386]

Well, if we are talking type 2 diabetes goldierocks, then for many it's a scourge brought on by themselves. Obese people who stuff their faces with excessive sugary & fatty foods and won't exercise, bring it on themselves in the same way that smokers do. I don't wish any harm on either of them, but we each make our own choices on how we live our lives. Baboons have no such choice, and may the scientists who perform their experiments on them die screaming themselves from rectal cancer. I think that about concludes my rant, Thank you all for your contributions, and to all of those who voted. :Y:

A convenient throwaway line of "it's all their fault".That is only correct for a portion of the First world. It appears to be genetic to a significant degree, especially in the Third World (the largest problem at present) but to some extent in the First World. For many there seems to be a link - genetic pre-distribution to narrow airways, resulting apnoea even in those not heavy, a resulting tendency to weight gain related to failure to sleep properly (I don't understand that one but have been assured it is so by a specialist). But levels among indigenous Americans, Australians and others (large parts of Africa and the Pacific) is horrendous - I can only imagine that it is a different metabolism for people who "evolved" on a hunter-gatherer diet low in sugar. Indigenous Australians and Torres Strait islanders have four times the level of diabetes 2 of non-indigenous Australians, North American indigenous twice that of the USA population, Afro-Americans twice, Pacific Islanders 2.5 times.30% of some African populations have impaired glucose intolerance (and the population of Africa in 2020 is 1.35 billion. more than China and India). Brazil has a 20% level. Part of it is also weight gain on a high-sugar western diet, and ignorance of the effect of life-style changes on migration to the cities for jobs, but far from all - in many cases they have lost the option of healthier alternatives (go to indigenous outback towns - your choice is kangaroo, camel and canned food - the minor frozen foods tend not to survive the heat and generator breakdowns, fresh vegies won't grow and are often near non-existent because of transport problems, and 300% mark-up on capital city supermarket prices on canned and frozen goods - when available - is typical ). This is typical of many Third World countries. 80% of people with diabetes live in low-income or middle-income countries (they are not fat and wealthy Westerners).

"Sleep apnea alters our sleep cycle and stages of sleep. Some studies have linked altered sleep stages with a decrease in growth hormone, which plays a key role in body composition such as body fat, muscle, and abdominal fat. Researchers have found a possible link between sleep apnea and the development of diabetes and insulin resistance (the inability of the body to use insulin)".

https://www.resmed.com/en-us/sleep-apnea/sleep-blog/why-does-sleep-apnea-cause-weight-gain/

Not wanting to be an apologist for those who simply over-eat through lack of self-control, but assumptions like yours are rather broad-brush and poorly-informed on this issue (we have small and mostly declining populations in the West - diabetes is a growth feature of the poorer countries). If I sound frustrated, it is because of the way middle-class Westerners readily think the rest of the world can be compared to their own societies ("let them eat brioche" a la Marie Antoinette).

 

[Goldtarget]

Discussed this today at work.

Can anyone tell me if they are bred specific for this purpose ( controlled breeding to develop a group or number of them) or if there is a differing method to aquire numbers for research purposes.

My assertion within that discussion that I assumed they would be purpose bred, and therefore the genetic line was devised for purpose as opposed to capturing from the wild or aquiring numbers from a zoo program population or similar means.

I have no evidence for my assumption, and would be quite shocked if it was anything other than controlled breeding.

 

[user 4386]

Discussed this today at work.

Can anyone tell me if they are bred specific for this purpose ( controlled breeding to develop a group or number of them) or if there is a differing method to aquire numbers for research purposes.

My assertion within that discussion that I assumed they would be purpose bred, and therefore the genetic line was devised for purpose as opposed to capturing from the wild or aquiring numbers from a zoo program population or similar means.

I have no evidence for my assumption, and would be quite shocked if it was anything other than controlled breeding.

I know that they are commonly bred for that purpose - and I would be surprised if any were not. As you say, some genetic consistency would be required, as well as a history of health issues in ancestors. I don't know where they would have come from initially, but that would probably have been long ago. I do know that their origins are closely monitored - certainly universities and medical facilities are rigid about this, and there would be hell to pay otherwise (also it would be purposeless because of lack of control). That is why I said they do not go around pinching pet animals (more likely whoever said that can take some solace that their stolen pet is probably now someone else's pet, and not being dissected etc.).

 

[user 4386]

It's a gold forum, so why worry about the baboons here.

Cheers

Doug

So far as I know that is a common but incorrect assumption among some members. If you go to the home page you will see that there are a great many topics discussed, everything from "are you OK" to camping gear, outdoors activities, sharing jokes and Australian history (and of course fossils, gemstones, mineral identification and other things geological). It is not a private site just for gold prospectors and their technical methods, and such people commonly have many, usually outdoor and quite Australian interests. One can easily see from a topic heading what it is, and you do not need to go there. I find it absolutely incredible that some topics like climate change are actually banned, as if adults are incapable of discussing some topics - it is not party politics, it is science, and the habit of mods to ban and erase entire topics at their whim, rather than temporarily banning individuals who become aggressive or abusive within a topic, is deplorable in my opinion. Sometimes I suspect it involves personal bias, but mostly it is simply a bad approach (some people do get very aggro and insulting). Given that anything here (eg what I am writing here) can be googled by the public, it gives a very negative impression of the group to outsiders. We may need their support to continue recreation like gold prospecting (my main interest)- God help us if the press ever tries to make an issue of it ("Redneck climate deniers with anger issues who oppose even discussion of climate change, and who dig up our forests and pollute our streams"). Not a fair appraisal of most members as anyone who reads regularly knows, but there are plenty of greens out there waiting to exploit it and close off access to areas - it is not a good look. I have people actually say such things to me after accidentally coming across some of the group blogs.

And when we could be entering a global pandemic, the issue seems very relevant to people's lives - conversely because many here are great supporters of animals etc because they live with them and constantly see them during their activities.

 

[Gpx5000]

Discussed this today at work.

Can anyone tell me if they are bred specific for this purpose ( controlled breeding to develop a group or number of them) or if there is a differing method to aquire numbers for research purposes.

My assertion within that discussion that I assumed they would be purpose bred, and therefore the genetic line was devised for purpose as opposed to capturing from the wild or aquiring numbers from a zoo program population or similar means.

I have no evidence for my assumption, and would be quite shocked if it was anything other than controlled breeding.

They said on the news that the baboons are farmed for this purpose.
This doesn't make the baboons feel better, I'm sure.

But there again, I have proof vegetables have feelings too:
https://youtu.be/KtkfE_OWSzo

:lol: :lol:

 

[Rockhunter62]

It's a gold forum, so why worry about the baboons here.

Cheers

Doug

So far as I know that is a common but incorrect assumption among some members. If you go to the home page you will see that there are a great many topics discussed, everything from "are you OK" to camping gear, outdoors activities, sharing jokes and Australian history (and of course fossils, gemstones, mineral identification and other things geological). It is not a private site just for gold prospectors and their technical methods, and such people commonly have many, usually outdoor and quite Australian interests. One can easily see from a topic heading what it is, and you do not need to go there. I find it absolutely incredible that some topics like climate change are actually banned, as if adults are incapable of discussing some topics - it is not party politics, it is science, and the habit of mods to ban and erase entire topics at their whim, rather than temporarily banning individuals who become aggressive or abusive within a topic, is deplorable in my opinion. Sometimes I suspect it involves personal bias, but mostly it is simply a bad approach (some people do get very aggro and insulting). Given that anything here (eg what I am writing here) can be googled by the public, it gives a very negative impression of the group to outsiders. We may need their support to continue recreation like gold prospecting (my main interest)- God help us if the press ever tries to make an issue of it ("Redneck climate deniers with anger issues who oppose even discussion of climate change, and who dig up our forests and pollute our streams"). Not a fair appraisal of most members as anyone who reads regularly knows, but there are plenty of greens out there waiting to exploit it and close off access to areas - it is not a good look. I have people actually say such things to me after accidentally coming across some of the group blogs.

And when we could be entering a global pandemic, the issue seems very relevant to people's lives - conversely because many here are great supporters of animals etc because they live with them and constantly see them during their activities.

Sorry Goldierocks, I just don't care about baboons.

Cheers

Doug

 

[happyenough]

I was shocked to see them bounding around but this has been happening since time in memorium giving us the results that we need to save human life including your children and grand children.

The extreme lefty vegan types raid farm threatening farmers saving goats and sheep so that their brothers and sisters dont miss them,really. :lol:

I am pretty sure this vote will be split between the under 35s and the over 40s with the other not knowing what to do.

At least their lives are being used for the ultimate prime mate - ME. :|

 

[Ridge Runner]

So far China has given us Bird Flu in 1997 and then SARS in 2002 which was Identified in 2003 and in 2020 they have given us this Cronovirus.

And in 2012 the Arabian Peninsula gave us MERS.

Seems like every 6 to 8 years someone somewhere gives us something with devastating results. ] :argh: :argh: :argh:

I just read that HIV crossed over from Chimps which was "SIV" Simian Immunodeficiency Virus and it crossed over to Humans in the 1920's and became HIV Human Immunodeficiency Virus, The first case of HIV was verified in a blood sample in 1959 But there is a debate as to when it was Identified in the 1980's

https://www.avert.org/professionals...MI193C1Ofx5wIVwbHtCh2_DgZ7EAAYAyAAEgJLhfD_BwE