Appalling Crimes

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goldierocks said:
The real problem is the type of society we seem to have created - it is primarily families that create criminals (addiction and violence issues often results from a damaged childhood), and we need to break the pattern.
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I particularly like this sentence in your post, but it will be a tough job to change given the current social and political environment.

Rob P.
 
some good info & stats data there Goldirocks.
BTW, If your question was aimed my way, re "have you volunteered in any youth organisations lately", well yeah, & I dont usually go out of my way to justify or prove myself, but in this case I will tell you, I do a fair bit of volunteer work, & I give to charities regularly. had to give up SES (State Emergency Service) volunteering years ago due to my back injuries, but I contribute in other ways as well tho, like my local PCYC & other groups, & I am also currently supporting 1 of my daughters thru University doing her Bachelors Degree is Social Work, specialising in Youth Counselling & Support.
.
heres another shocker. Man runs into a supermarket where my 2nd daughter lives (Northam WA) & stabs a couple of people, then tries to steal cars , one with a child still inside.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-northam-shopping-centre-20190616-p51y7s.html
 
Ded Driver said:
some good info & stats data there Goldirocks.
BTW, If your question was aimed my way, re "have you volunteered in any youth organisations lately", well yeah, & I dont usually go out of my way to justify or prove myself, but in this case I will tell you, I do a fair bit of volunteer work, & I give to charities regularly. had to give up SES (State Emergency Service) volunteering years ago due to my back injuries, but I contribute in other ways as well tho, like my local PCYC & other groups, & I am also currently supporting 1 of my daughters thru University doing her Bachelors Degree is Social Work, specialising in Youth Counselling & Support.
.
heres another shocker. Man runs into a supermarket where my 2nd daughter lives (Northam WA) & stabs a couple of people, then tries to steal cars , one with a child still inside.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-northam-shopping-centre-20190616-p51y7s.html
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It was a general question to everyone. Sounds like you are doing your bit though. I have actually found it more fun than a chore - there is satisfaction in it.

There is nothing we can do about some weird individuals, but we can make kids feel worthwhile and disinclined to be attracted to hard drugs or prone to violence. I think most dad's wish that. regardless of what they may have done when young themselves.
 
I am not racist...

but I walked into a shop yesterday and noticed the owner was standing very stiff and giving me a hard look , I scanned the shop and there was a 40 something year old Sudanese woman shoplifting , shovelling confectionary up her jacket while using a newspaper to try and block the owner from seeing it . I pulled out my phone to record the thing but the owner looked at me and shook her head .

When the thing had left the shop I asked if she wanted help and the owner just said its not worth it , police dont come here unless its an armed robbery or murder and even if they did turn up she was more afraid that 10 of this womans friends would come back with knives or worse.

She said the best plan was just doing nothing and hope the thing gets hit by a bus.

Pretty crap state of the nation hey.
 
CreviceSucker said:
I am not racist...

but I walked into a shop yesterday and noticed the owner was standing very stiff and giving me a hard look , I scanned the shop and there was a 40 something year old Sudanese woman shoplifting , shovelling confectionary up her jacket while using a newspaper to try and block the owner from seeing it . I pulled out my phone to record the thing but the owner looked at me and shook her head .

When the thing had left the shop I asked if she wanted help and the owner just said its not worth it , police dont come here unless its an armed robbery or murder and even if they did turn up she was more afraid that 10 of this womans friends would come back with knives or worse.

She said the best plan was just doing nothing and hope the thing gets hit by a bus.

Pretty crap state of the nation hey.
Click to expand...
I have had a couple of similar recent experiences recently - but all were white Aussies. One of the shopkeeper said exactly the same thing - the police will not come if we call them. My experience in every country I have been in is that MOST people are racist to varying degree (although not of the nasty bashing type, usually fairly benign). Usually reflecting little more than cultural difference. What defines when we are being racist (i.e. is it when we need to state a persons ethnicity when discussing something - a thief is a thief)? I try to catch myself before I do that, so as not to show it, since I don't think it one of my attractive traits. I am old enough to have seen it applied to every immigrant group that has entered Australia since the second world war, disappearing as people assimilate.
 
So it costs about $1 million dollars per prisoner to build the prisons, then $100,000 per year per adult inmate .
Something I just cant get my head around. Whats wrong with shipping containers, there cheap. We treat our prisoners way better than our elderly and to me thats a big sign of a very wrong society. :mad:
 
Crevice Sucker, this is a huge problem everywhere, & not just limited to any particular demographic group.
and as you described, often the solution is to do nothing, especially if the person running the shop is often or always alone.
What they should do is have CCTV & make a report & give the footage to police. Then we can only hope that if they are repeat offenders (often are) the law eventually catches up with them.
 
Bjay said:
So it costs about $1 million dollars per prisoner to build the prisons, then $100,000 per year per adult inmate .
Something I just cant get my head around. Whats wrong with shipping containers, there cheap. We treat our prisoners way better than our elderly and to me thats a big sign of a very wrong society. :mad:
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I have sometimes thought the same, but most prisons are not all that fancy. I think much of the cost is in security - we don't want prisoners breaking out all the time. I don't think it is either/or - I think we could do better with the elderly.
 
goldierocks said:
CreviceSucker said:
I am not racist...

but I walked into a shop yesterday and noticed the owner was standing very stiff and giving me a hard look , I scanned the shop and there was a 40 something year old Sudanese woman shoplifting , shovelling confectionary up her jacket while using a newspaper to try and block the owner from seeing it . I pulled out my phone to record the thing but the owner looked at me and shook her head .

When the thing had left the shop I asked if she wanted help and the owner just said its not worth it , police dont come here unless its an armed robbery or murder and even if they did turn up she was more afraid that 10 of this womans friends would come back with knives or worse.

She said the best plan was just doing nothing and hope the thing gets hit by a bus.

Pretty crap state of the nation hey.
Click to expand...
I have had a couple of similar recent experiences recently - but all were white Aussies. One of the shopkeeper said exactly the same thing - the police will not come if we call them. My experience in every country I have been in is that MOST people are racist to varying degree (although not of the nasty bashing type, usually fairly benign). Usually reflecting little more than cultural difference. What defines when we are being racist (i.e. is it when we need to state a persons ethnicity when discussing something - a thief is a thief)? I try to catch myself before I do that, so as not to show it, since I don't think it one of my attractive traits. I am old enough to have seen it applied to every immigrant group that has entered Australia since the second world war, disappearing as people assimilate.
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While a do agree a thief is a thief... ethnicity, skin colour, accent etc etc all play a part in helping identify someone be it a crook or otherwise and has zero to do with making a person a racist.

Context is what makes a person a racist.

Imaging the Amber alerts when some kid goes missing but if you can't describe a predominant feature. Might as well post a photo of Mister Potatohead.
 
Ded Driver said:
Crevice Sucker, this is a huge problem everywhere, & not just limited to any particular demographic group.
and as you described, often the solution is to do nothing, especially if the person running the shop is often or always alone.
What they should do is have CCTV & make a report & give the footage to police. Then we can only hope that if they are repeat offenders (often are) the law eventually catches up with them.
Click to expand...
One of the shops I mentioned simply takes their photos on CCTV, blows them up and puts them in the window. If they live in the neighbourhood they often don't like mum. aunty or even some of their mates seeing photos of them thieving. It shouldn't happen, but lets face it, there are worse crimes - would you say you want them to fall under a bus if it was your neighbour's (non-Sudanese) daughter? We just need a better value system in families (years ago I went into a bookshop with my 4 year old who was playing an electronic game. Soon after I saw he was upset. An adult woman (the only other person in the shop) had grabbed it our of his hands and walked out with it. I have to wonder about the value system of an adult who steals toys from a 4 year old.

I lived in Africa for 11 years full-time and saw many wars there. Most Africans I met were honest, friendly and non-violent. However the wars there have been horrendous (7 million died in the last war in the DRC - we hardly report on African wars). I have had my town turn into a refugee camp overnight, full of people with limbs hacked off, gang-raped women so injured they will never have children, people necklaced with car tyres and petrol, old women made to drink bottles of kitchen detergent, children forced to kill their parents. The children often have these images imprinted on their minds. Atrocities committee by a small number of people usually, not by the majority who just want to be peaceful, safe and honest. The refugees come from that background. For that reason (starting with WW2 European immigrants, then Vietnam), there is commonly a higher level of crime and violence among them initially until they assimilate (but it is nevertheless still a tiny minority of them) - the fact that they are discriminated against simply because of their appearance hardly helps their disposition in the meantime. Would people nowadays say "an Italian" or "a Greek" did such and such?? It would seem absurd now, but was common as a comment about "New Australians" when I was a child, and terms like wog and **** were in common use then, and the use of knives, not previously common in fights between Australians, were particularly commented on, then the Vietnamese machete gangs. Absolutely unacceptable and beyond the pale. But times change.....

If you commit a crime you should be punished - no excuses - but I understand although don't condone their behaviour - violence and theft are often the only reasons they survived. I have had Sudanese students whose sole education has been in refugee camps, and watched them graduate, displaying the determination that is often a feature of emigrants (which includes my own family). I remember a Baltic friend who would receive phone calls from all the relatives around Melbourne if he got under 90% for a subject. and my wife encountered similar - the parents are desperate for their children to have a better life.

Australians consume much more alcohol per capita than some Europeans, infinitely more than Arabs - so should we all be condemned as drunks? Likewise it does not seem reasonable to me to condemn an entire group because they display a higher incidence of juvenile crime.
 
Ded Driver said:
my thoughts exactly Goldierocks.
we, as a society, could/can do far better for our elderly.
I think its also appaling that a pensioner anywhere sometimes has to shiver thru the night because they cant afford power or gas to run a heater!
...& this also relates to many of all ages
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Agreed, and I do wonder about our value system - a society that does not adequately care for its children or aged is going to develop other value problems as well, Not that we do nothing - but we could do better.
 
goldierocks said:
it does not seem reasonable to me to condemn an entire group because they display a higher incidence of juvenile crime.
Click to expand...

To me, there is a definite pattern that has emerged.
First the Italians, Greeks, Croats etc in the 50's and early 60's,
Then the Viets in the 70's followed by other Asians,
and now the Sudanese.

It is not these immigrants that were/are the problem
it appears to be their offspring, the first generation born here.

But the Indians and Sri Lankan's do not appear on any stats.
 
Redfin said:
goldierocks said:
it does not seem reasonable to me to condemn an entire group because they display a higher incidence of juvenile crime.
Click to expand...

To me, there is a definite pattern that has emerged.
First the Italians, Greeks, Croats etc in the 50's and early 60's,
Then the Viets in the 70's followed by other Asians,
and now the Sudanese.

It is not these immigrants that were/are the problem
it appears to be their offspring, the first generation born here.

But the Indians and Sri Lankan's do not appear on any stats.
Click to expand...
Yes, that seems to be a pattern. But the next generation after that are usually well assimilated (and have better education, a higher standard of living). However, even the majority of the first generation born here are mostly assimilated, one only hears of the problem people among them, which is a small percentage - but yes, I think that it true as a general pattern. True about the Sri Lankans and Indians, but they only make up a small proportion of refugees - most come here as migrants rather than refugees, they also tend to have a higher standard of education and be wealthier ( a bit like the WW2 Jewish "refos" and others from Holland, Germany and the Baltic states. As you say though, the Indians etc tend not to fit that sequence, and seem to be rapidly productive and self-sufficient. It all sorts out in the end in my 3 and a half decades of experience, having family born on three continents and ranging from Apaches to Blackfoot, Irish convicts and female potato-famine immigrants, to South African Jews and early ozzie prospectors, camel drivers and stage-coach drivers. We are all boat people if we are not indigenous (many of the latter had a terrible time under my ancestors). I try to keep in mind that many refugees - perhaps most - have severe PTSD. The sands of time ---- it is the future that matters and that we need to keep building.
 

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