Wait till people get the bill for there replacement battery
Whinge of the day thread...
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Ouch ! Thats a pity, I was hoping for a healthy second hand ev market as I cant afford a new one but battery costs like this will kill that possibility. Good for the mining industry and Chinese manufacturing though. For those who stilk think driving an ev will help the enviroment, yeh sure what ever makes you feel good.
Even more concerning was the battery being replaced after 70.000 miles, (110,000kms),. So if we say average Diesel engine 350kms, that $90,000 in batteries for the equivalent kms.
This is a Florida invoice being circulated (one wonders why - it is not from a manufacturer of hydrocarbon cars I suppose)? It is $A44,000 which is absolute nonsense for a typical EV or hybrid battery here. And the issue is not how many km but how many years old - someone who buys a hybrid to only drive it an average of 11,000 km per year needs their head read!. Horses for coures. Otherwise it must be replacement of a battery physically damaged in a crash and not covered by the normal 10 year warranty (but therefore should be covered by insurance). If it is genuine.....
Q1 What is it - a Tesla superfast charge?
"At the moment, the cost to replace an EV battery pack (40kWh) is around $A8000 – which is not really any more than a failed combustion engine.
However, as car-makers are set to significantly increase the production of EVs over the next decade, financial analysts predict the price of batteries will drop drastically, by more than half before 2025, which would mean a replacement battery could cost around $A2500 within a few years."
https://www.carsales.com.au/editori...es-it-cost-to-maintain-an-electric-car-129118
Q2 The average battery warranty is 8-10 years, so a battery costs around $1,000 per year. But battery cost replaces hydrocarbon fuel cost to a significant degree (charging cost is much less per km, perhaps a third the cost of buying fuel). Also, at the moment, the Electric Vehicle Council of Australia states that servicing costs for an EV are between $300-$400 cheaper per year than a conventional vehicle.
Q3 A remanufactured battery is usually only a couple of thousand dollars for a hybrid like in this invoice (for a Volta) - there is also a secondhand EV battery market.
"Remanufactured batteries will be warrantied for two years, but Injectronics says a reborn nickel-metal hydride unit can deliver the same performance as a factory-fresh battery back and could offer the same eight or 10-year life."
There is a lot of effort to discourage electric cars in some sectors, usually focussing on disinformation rather than the real negatives that remain. I think an electric car comes out well ahead economically, except for initial vehicle outlay and inconvenience (or inappropriateness. eg 4x4) issues (the inconvenience re regular chargging being negligible if used just as a suburban runabout). Still won't buy one myself because of that, but I can imagine my wife getting one as a small local runabout when her car needs replacing.
Check the facts against your intended use before buying or rejecting.
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Pity evs dont go down the path of an easy swap in swap out generically sized battery. It would solve a number of problems and presumibly reduce the price of a replacement as it would allow more competition amoungst battery makers. Wishful thinking yes I know. Heavy transport is looking at this but only for pragmatic reasons like a reasonable charging time for the huge battery needed.
I can't see batteries coming down in price as you say ,the way things are going with inflation, it will cost even more than it does today ,its costly To extract lithium to produce these batteries ,the cost of machinery and mining, transport and manufacturing it's all going to jump up considerably because renewable energy sources are not reliable or cheap .
I bet they don't mention we you buy a EV that charging them is equivalent to running 25 air conditioners at once ,can you imagine the strain on the grid when everyone in the city is charging their cars at night ,they'll never do away with oil , besides its the second most abundant liquid on the planet
I bet they don't mention we you buy a EV that charging them is equivalent to running 25 air conditioners at once ,can you imagine the strain on the grid when everyone in the city is charging their cars at night ,they'll never do away with oil , besides its the second most abundant liquid on the planet
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Yes that was not my prediction, and one needs to tak in terms of present day dollars. although some reduction seems likely.
Not only strain at one time but we will need to produce 300% of our current electricity consumption - while reducing emissions. A fairy tale I feel.
Not sure what I was watching at lunchtime but the rare earth mines for EVs here in Australia are going to explode in size and they are already building processing plants the size of country towns.
I like the idea of electric cars but there's no flipping way they are going to be any better for the environment than carbon burning cars. Atleast we know all the risks of oil by now , I wonder how many evil waste products come from refining these minerals and also if these batteries could have some sort of unknown radiation or gas vapour that 10 years from now kills everything.
If Australia doesn't value add these minerals by producing the batteries and components here, we will be the dumbest nation on the planet.
Apparently we have some of the largest supplies of the minerals needed and one of the few countries with every mineral needed.
On the good news side , on Landline they done a story on a red seaweed that stops cows burping and farting.
I like the idea of electric cars but there's no flipping way they are going to be any better for the environment than carbon burning cars. Atleast we know all the risks of oil by now , I wonder how many evil waste products come from refining these minerals and also if these batteries could have some sort of unknown radiation or gas vapour that 10 years from now kills everything.
If Australia doesn't value add these minerals by producing the batteries and components here, we will be the dumbest nation on the planet.
Apparently we have some of the largest supplies of the minerals needed and one of the few countries with every mineral needed.
On the good news side , on Landline they done a story on a red seaweed that stops cows burping and farting.
Agree re getting markets tied up and us doing manufacture, but things are not necessarily as good as the pollies make out. There are 5 countries with larger rare earth reserves than Australia (China, Vietnam, Brazil, Russia and India), especially of the more valuable rare earths (e.g. China is 10x Australia). Likewise three countries have larger lithium reserves (e.g. Bolivia has 50% of world reserves, others are Chile and Argentina). Our exports are a bit skewed by one lithium mine, Greenbushes (even USA has only slightly less than Greenbushes). The world currently has enough lithium for nearly 200 years at current production, but that could be expected to reduce dramatically. We have modest cobalt (by-product of nickel mining) which is currenntly very important in lithium batteries, although there is a move away from its use. DRC produces 70% of world production, followed by Russia. If recycled, 95 per cent of lithium-ion battery components can be turned into new batteries or used in other industries, but most of Australia's battery waste is shipped overseas.
Reserves are still very inadequate measures since there has only recently been a lot of exploration (so much may be unmeasured). However it remains to be seen if it will be revolutionary for Australia (if mining only I would doubt it).
The four metals used most abundantly in both types of cars are not even mentioned (iron, aluminium in fine print, titanium, magnesium not at all). A few decades ago we had major developments here in magnesium metal, that was to be the new wonder metal - most companies then collapsed. What it is really showing is that a greater number of "New Age" metals are used in EVs than in conventional cars, which is completely correct (if inaccurate - eg your mobile phone alone uses about 12 metals and so would EV I imagine). But it does show how there will be a boom in demand for lithium, perhaps cobalt and to some extent rare earths and nickel. Lithium is the only abundant one at present.
A study (Qld) has shown that the average income of EV buyers is $159,000 per annum putting buyers very clearly into the high income bracket.
Do we infer that high income earners are more concerned with environmental issues than the average Joe? Rather it means that the average person just cannot afford them at the present time.
So how do we get from the current level of new EV car sales of less than 2 percent to a target of 89 percent by 2030. With great difficulty I would suggest as we would need for either the cost of EVs to come down significantly or the average person's income to go up significantly.
Agree that the materials used in EVs are relatively abundant world wide but the laws of supply and demand will ensure that prices for these will remain high or even higher due to the high demand created by the huge manufacturing effort required to produce an unprecedented billions of EVs worldwide.
Alternatively If you meet someone who thinks that the average Joe is going to get significantly richer over the next decade, tell him he's dreaming.
What is going to happen is that we will be hit with a raft of onerous laws, regulations and taxes to force us to comply and those that can't will probably be stigmatised like smokers by the law and regulation makers.
Batten down folks.
Do we infer that high income earners are more concerned with environmental issues than the average Joe? Rather it means that the average person just cannot afford them at the present time.
So how do we get from the current level of new EV car sales of less than 2 percent to a target of 89 percent by 2030. With great difficulty I would suggest as we would need for either the cost of EVs to come down significantly or the average person's income to go up significantly.
Agree that the materials used in EVs are relatively abundant world wide but the laws of supply and demand will ensure that prices for these will remain high or even higher due to the high demand created by the huge manufacturing effort required to produce an unprecedented billions of EVs worldwide.
Alternatively If you meet someone who thinks that the average Joe is going to get significantly richer over the next decade, tell him he's dreaming.
What is going to happen is that we will be hit with a raft of onerous laws, regulations and taxes to force us to comply and those that can't will probably be stigmatised like smokers by the law and regulation makers.
Batten down folks.
I don't believe that $150,000 is a high income bracket. My Granddaughter started a new job at $93,000 and that was her first job. IT specialists would laugh at that amount. Still a long way from the pension but I am happy with what i have. Mackka
Oh , on FB , i mentioned that the Broncos needed to Cull some players and got reprimanded. The word Cull is offensive to some, apparently. Mackka
I don't see how we have a hope in hell of having 89% EVs by 2030. Pollies never mention that 100% EV compliance would mean we would have to generate 3 times as much electricity as we do now (based on limited studies). That seems pie in the sky to me (imagine doing in 7 years while also drastically reducing emissions). It will happen one day, but the timetable seems ridiculous.
We have achieved a bit less than that increase over the past 41 years - mainly from coal. All discussions seems to be on changing the proportion of renewables in the mix over time, not on how we are going to generate the amount we need, Many studies seem to be based on around 350 KwH by 2030, but seem to predate stated intentions with EVs. And the total generation graph in recent years seems to be flattening not climbing.
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Add to that most evs will be charged at night. We dont have much hydro and we dont have nuclear so that only leaves one main source. Australia not having nuclear is another whinge of mine. While China plans to build 150 rectors in the next 15 years to help them get reliable base load power. We will be left pushing the old dead panels we bought off them into landfill or sending them to Africa do be umm lets say recycled. Australia should learn off Germanys mistakes. Even Putin of all people warned them a few years ago and they just laughed... Fools. https://www.google.com/search?q=201...ate=ive&vld=cid:7e9b7130,vid:7Y3-jEYH9Lo,st:0
Our coal plants are getting old and although ever one is pumping renewables no one seems to be talking about how to make them into a reliable base load source of power or factoring in the cost of doing so.
There was the proposal to convert from coal to gas (a good gas plant can give half the emissions of carbon dioxide per KwH electricity generated). However because it is a fossil fuel the emissions savings was ignored in favour of a resounding NO. There are other possibilities such as hydrogen, but the time factor is an issue. A rapid solution is required to resolve the issue of rapidly increasing demand coupled with an extremely short timeline for emissions reduction.
Nuclear does not get a hearing but is dismissed as too expensive, when in fact that is a function of initial capital outlay not running costs. It is very difficult to get an accurate answer on it, partly because governments don't really investigate it seriously I suspect (the problem being a negative image). Another issue is that although they can supply a major part of base load demand, they are not built overnight.
Nuclear does not get a hearing but is dismissed as too expensive, when in fact that is a function of initial capital outlay not running costs. It is very difficult to get an accurate answer on it, partly because governments don't really investigate it seriously I suspect (the problem being a negative image). Another issue is that although they can supply a major part of base load demand, they are not built overnight.
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