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So how is the global average temperature of the atmosphere determined without taking the temperature at the moment at a particular place, albeit every place (hypothetically)?
i'm still a skeptic as in my experience 40 or so yrs ago it was called a hole in the ozone layer, millions made selling sunscreen lotion, then a name change to global warming and now its climate change, billions being made out of renewable energy?
What will the next name change be?


A number of methods - one is by always taking the temperature at the same number of numerous places and averaging them. Another is measurement from satellites at numerous places.

If the globe warms then obviously the climate has changed - the public finds some terms easier to understand, and less of a mouthful, but it is Global Anthropogenic Climate Change (which most people would agree is a pain in the arse to keep repeating in full).

I'm unclear why you mention the hole in the ozone layer and renewable energy in the same breath as climate change. The hole in the ozone layer and climate change are different and quite unrelated things (the only connection I can see is that they seem to upset people because they are potential health-damaging things that require some action to remedy, and people dislike change). Renewable energy is just one of many ways in which we can produce power (like nuclear, oil, gas and coal). Don't you think billions are being made selling you coal-generated power as well? Renewable energy has long been known but it came into the news because it is one (just one) way in which climate change might be reduced, but its economics is now better than other methods of power generation in the main, and it does have other useful side effects like reducing other forms of airborne pollution (which give Chinese, Indians and some other nations shorter life-spans than ours). So linking it to climate change is now a bit tenuous since it is a stand-alone economic means of power production (however I don't think we can dispense with the other methods overnight because we have already made the investment in them, and because until we have adequate battery storage systems there are still times when they must be supplemented when there is a shortage of wind and sunlight). There are other issues as well, some positive some negative). Each renewable power station seems to be smaller (so you need a lot), however having a lot has strategic advantages because it is harder for a hostile power to knock out a country's power (eg France and Japan could have most of their power knocked out by attacks on just a few sites because they depend on a limited numer of nuclear reactors - since nuclear reactors each produce so much more power).

We don't like change but it has always occurred, and successful nations simply adapt as required. Adoption of oil made the USA and Britain powerful nations, nuclear did similar to the USA and Russia (whether we like it or not). And of course if you don't want to use sunscreen lotion, no one is forcing you to do that.....
 
goldierocks said:
So how is the global average temperature of the atmosphere determined without taking the temperature at the moment at a particular place, albeit every place (hypothetically)?
i'm still a skeptic as in my experience 40 or so yrs ago it was called a hole in the ozone layer, millions made selling sunscreen lotion, then a name change to global warming and now its climate change, billions being made out of renewable energy?
What will the next name change be?


A number of methods - one is by always taking the temperature at the same number of numerous places and averaging them. Another is measurement from satellites at numerous places.

If the globe warms then obviously the climate has changed - the public finds some terms easier to understand, and less of a mouthful, but it is Global Anthropogenic Climate Change (which most people would agree is a pain in the arse to keep repeating in full).

I'm unclear why you mention the hole in the ozone layer and renewable energy in the same breath as climate change. The hole in the ozone layer and climate change are different and quite unrelated things (the only connection I can see is that they seem to upset people because they are potential health-damaging things that require some action to remedy, and people dislike change). Renewable energy is just one of many ways in which we can produce power (like nuclear, oil, gas and coal). Don't you think billions are being made selling you coal-generated power as well? Renewable energy has long been known but it came into the news because it is one (just one) way in which climate change might be reduced, but its economics is now better than other methods of power generation in the main, and it does have other useful side effects like reducing other forms of airborne pollution (which give Chinese, Indians and some other nations shorter life-spans than ours). So linking it to climate change is now a bit tenuous since it is a stand-alone economic means of power production (however I don't think we can dispense with the other methods overnight because we have already made the investment in them, and because until we have adequate battery storage systems there are still times when they must be supplemented when there is a shortage of wind and sunlight). There are other issues as well, some positive some negative). Each renewable power station seems to be smaller (so you need a lot), however having a lot has strategic advantages because it is harder for a hostile power to knock out a country's power (eg France and Japan could have most of their power knocked out by attacks on just a few sites because they depend on a limited numer of nuclear reactors - since nuclear reactors each produce so much more power). For Australia there is the issue that sudden ceasing of coal mining would knock the hell out of our economy (mineral exports are around 40c of every dollar we earn, nearly double the value of agricultural exports, and coal and iron ore are the main minerals.

We don't like change but it has always occurred, and successful nations simply adapt as required. Adoption of oil made the USA and Britain powerful nations, nuclear did similar to the USA and Russia (whether we like it or not). And of course if you don't want to use sunscreen lotion, no one is forcing you to do that.....
 
Here is that Global temperature graph WITH its scale this time:

1550888127_globalt.jpg
 
So am I reading this right, since 1940 temps have risen approx 0.8 of one degree in eighty years. Yet from 1880 to 1910 it dropped 0.3 of one degree in thirty years.

Are we showing the increase of 0.8 and the rise as we have more refined measuring equipment and more globally located reporting stations?
 
Manpa said:
So am I reading this right, since 1940 temps have risen approx 0.8 of one degree in eighty years. Yet from 1880 to 1910 it dropped 0.3 of one degree in thirty years.

Are we showing the increase of 0.8 and the rise as we have more refined measuring equipment and more globally located reporting stations?
You are getting to the limit of my knowledge of the topic, but I suspect that your final sentence is the reason. They did not standardise the boxes that the thermometers sit in until 1910 (you cant have wind or sunlight directly influencing the thermometer), the amount of carbon dioxide added to the atmosphere by humans at that time was not nearly as large, and they have to make do with those measurement locations that were in use back then, since no one was interested much in global warming then (in particular, the huge areas of oceans were not covered, and most measurement locations in countries like Australia, Arabia, Africa, Russia were around the coast rather than inland). Since then they have been able to choose more abundant and more evenly distributed stations (not just the postmaster in places like Birdsville) and added systematic measurement from satellites. Also they started measuring other things than the atmosphere (eg the oceans themselves, the rate at which sea level was rising, and the rate at which carbon dioxide was increasing in the atmosphere). So better temperature data, not confined to the atmosphere, and supporting evidence not just temperature measurements alone.

So the "good" data is probably around a 0.8 degree increase, although they claim from other evidence that it is a bit more than a degree over the last 150 years. And it appears to be more rapid towards the poles than around the equator (this graph averages that out, since it is a global average graph). The dire predictions (which vary all over the place, since they are theoretical models) have one thing in common - increasing carbon dioxide is consistent with the apparent warming trend, and the present amount of carbon dioxide should greatly increase warming in the near future. We do know from Antarctic ice core data that there is now nearly double the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than at any time in the last million years, and the ice cores show us that past temperatures are directly proportional to the amount of carbon dioxide in past atmospheres. We also know that glaciers are melting at a rapid rate, as is polar ice, particularly Arctic sea ice.

There is little doubt that the temperature is systematically rising (but of course it has been doing that since the last glacial period - it is the apparent increase in the rate of increase in its rise that has caused the concern - occurring at the same time as the rate of carbon dioxide going into the atmosphere has accelerated alarmingly). The graph appears to be climbing more steeply and systematically over the last 50 years. Also there is no doubt that that sea level is rising, and that there is a relationship between temperature and the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Beyond that it is all theoretical modelling (which is difficult for anyone but experts to interpret). However we can accurately model the predicted rate of further increase of carbon dioxide, and it is from that that future temperatures are estimated in the modelling.
 
We will never know Goldierocks the world will end someday and no-one gets out of here alive.
As you would have gleaned by now i don't believe everything i read contrary to some.
I do believe the three stages i mentioned are linked, the hole in the ozone layer, global warming, and climate change, if not scientifically but all part of an agenda. People don't like being manipulated and controlled, that part of all this appears to be for nothing short of a money grab. One side making the profit, the other side are paying. Civil unrest may decide.
 
EVIE/BEE said:
We will never know Goldierocks the world will end someday and no-one gets out of here alive.
As you would have gleaned by now i don't believe everything i read contrary to some.
I do believe the three stages i mentioned are linked, the hole in the ozone layer, global warming, and climate change, if not scientifically but all part of an agenda. People don't like being manipulated and controlled, that part of all this appears to be for nothing short of a money grab. One side making the profit, the other side are paying. Civil unrest may decide.
Well, global warming and climate change are the same thing, so yes. The hole in the ozone layer didn't really do a lot (we already used sunscreen for ages before we knew about any hole). UV and radiation damage was well established, radiation killing many early researchers (e.g. Marie Curie, who discovered radioactivity, died 85 years ago of aplastic anemia, believed to be caused by prolonged exposure to radiation).

Not sure who you mean are making the profit and who paying. Coal companies lose and renewable companies make money, fluorite mining companies lose and sunscreen companies win. Or if you mean the public versus companies, you can always not use power or sunscreens. :awful:

I'm not into conspiracy theories - like religion one needs no evidence, and any evidence advanced against a conspiracy is dismissed as proof of the conspiracy. Different types of belief systems to science...
 
EVIE/BEE said:
The civil unrest has started in France.
We're going around in circles, i'm going gold digging, suggest you go analyse some drill core samples. :zzz:
Yeah, I feel that is a good idea...
 

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