Living with Electric Vehicles

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The Nullarbor can be a nasty trip when the wind is against you regardless of your power source. I crossed a few times in a Mazda T3500 ex-school bus. I one occasion I wore out the edge of the front tyres from steering into the cross wind for hours at a time.
 
The Nullarbor can be a nasty trip when the wind is against you regardless of your power source. I crossed a few times in a Mazda T3500 ex-school bus. I one occasion I wore out the edge of the front tyres from steering into the cross wind for hours at a time.
It's a sight to see those trees growing sideways from the southerly winds.
 
That's not an apples with apples economic comparison. The infrastructure cost of producing liquid fuels (overseas), shipping, transporting and providing them at such remote locations must be colossal, not to mention the fuel consumed and pollution created in that lengthy process. Alongside which, the fixed costs of installing solar panels and batteries seem pretty trivial.

As a bonus, Australia doesn't have to keep buying those endless rivers of fuel and being vulnerable to any interruptions to supply. Once the solar installation is in place, it pretty much takes care of itself and the setup cost will be soon recovered by motorists paying for recharges.
No, it is not if it were only the Nullarbor roadhouse, but there has to be a charging station every 250 km at the least for a reliable service (which is better than the 20-25 charges than he required, equal to worse than 150 km per charge). Petrol stations don;t exist at that spacing, much less towns. At present the cost of a battery and solar cells sufficient to produce around 8 KwH on a day with full sun all day is around $20,000 in the city. The average EV car battery stores 40-90 KwH (so you need this amount to fill it - I guess one such setup would fill one car per day at best on sunny days, a fraction of what a truck needs). That is one car. How many vehicles cross the Nullarbor per day? At the moment there are 240 vehicles on the highway just west of Ceduna to the WA border, many of them heavy transports. Life of a battery about 10 years (7 year warranty) a bit more for the cells (10 year warranty) - solar systems don't last forever any more than fuel systems. So multiply vehicles numbers per fill point by number of fill points by KwH average per vehicle every fill point (250 km) by the cost of sufficient cells and batteries at each fill point (for just 10 years life). And vehicles are not all evenly spaced, so allow for many times that to cover a group of vehicles arriving at once....I imagine the capital outlay would be tens of million per roadhouse, perhaps a million dollars per year ongoing. To set up new roadhouses whose primary purpose would be just to sell electricity (there are just so many cokes, pies and spare tyres that vehicles and drivers consume every 250 km). The gross income from each car fill would be $11-15 at city prices, the profit a small fraction of that (obviously trucks would be more). So you might gross $5,000 per day from all the daily vehicles (about the same as the gross from filling less than 40 cars with petrol although profit to the retailer would be more than for petrol). I know this is rough as guts, but I am trying to judge order of magnitude. I am not going to go into business with one of those new roadhouses....

My point is not that it will never happen, but that it is far, far from feasible now, and no one wants to get an ulcer running that gauntlet. It will probably change with time as technology improves and demand increases but we are not there yet (last year there were a total of 50,000 Evs on Australia;s roads out of 19 million registered vehicles, almost none crossing the Nullarbor). Even in the city at present, 71% of the electricity that you put in your EV is generated by fossil fuel and our grid cannot handle the solar input, which is why we are only paid 5c per KwH for what homes export to the grid. Probably almost all across the Nullabor at present are hydrocarbon-generated. We need longer ranges per charge and better batteries, and I expect one day we will get them, but at the moment it is very much cart before the horse outside the cities - most of our highways, beef roads etc have nothing like the Nullabor traffic density.

The car dealers want to sell you expensive solar cars, the government wants you to think it is doing green things and the media is a parrot cage. They are not the ones who get stuck back of Bourke (no one can bring you a jerry of electricity). We need serious discussion of what is realistic -and safe for that matter..

My next little 2nd car runabout in the city will be an EV - but I will be keeping the hydrocarbon car for long trips, probably for the rest of my driving life. Governments (as in the ACT) are crazy to give dates now after which they will not permit the sale of anything except EVs.
 
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And what no one discusses is that Australia would need to generate 2 to 3 times our present electricity generation if all vehicles were EVs, at a time when we are trying to go carbon neutral! Is anyone doing sums?
If all renewables were dedicated to ev's it could work.
Just leave the grid alone coal gas or whatever.
 
If all renewables were dedicated to ev's it could work.
Just leave the grid alone coal gas or whatever.
I was referring to the fact that the grid is unable to take extra electricity now being generated from renewables- no one is suggesting reducing the grid., but expanding it and its storage. The grid doesn't know how the electricity is generated but unless we use giant batteries we cannot store the extra that renewables produce during the day when we dont consume as much as at meal times etc. In a way we have altered the grid by generating part of the electricity we need on our own rooftops. Another change is pumped hydro - we consume the excess renewable electricity during the day when we have too much by pumping water uphill, to then let it flow downhill and turn hydro generators when the sun is not shining (so storing energy in dames that have potential energy for later use). Quite clever really, but there is green opposition to extra dams.

You cant have everything. My confusion is that I don't understand how we are going to generate so much more electricity than we do now to power EVs, entirely using renewables. "We'll find a way" is often a good attitude and what ultimately occurs, but we need sensible and quantitative discussion along the way. We are requiring mostly fossil fuel electricity to power our few solar cars at present.

Places like Norway and California have renewable or nuclear sources we don't have or have rejected - hydro and nuclear - so can happily drive EVs in their small or highly populated areas (relative to ours) using renewables. We are the flattest, lowest altitude, driest and hottest continent on Earth with the lowest population density (well, the same as Namibia). But our population is increasing, unlike much of Europe and Scandinavia (since 1985 we have increased 25% in population from memory, whereas Russia and many of those areas have had 5-20% population decline over the same period). Nearly all clustered in our 6% arable land in isolated cities around the coast.
 
The Burragorang valley catchment is huge, so here's a laymans question.
If the dam wall at Warragamba was raised by 14mtrs how long would that water last if it was used to generate hydro power?

sustainable. 👋

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@ $92990.00 for an LDV (first electric ute in oz) with a towing capacity of only 1000 kg and 30kw and 190 Nm below fossil fueled brother :rolleyes: With a price tag near double of it's fossil brother plus set up costs for charging, I'll stay a fossil and drive a fossil quite frankly as both price and lack of range together with charging times just makes it totally impractical for my world.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/2023-ldv-et60-pricing-and-features-australia-first-electric-ute
 
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@ $92990.00 for an LDV (first electric ute in oz) with a towing capacity of only 1000 kg and 30kw and 190 Nm below fossil fueled brother :rolleyes: With a price tag near double of it's fossil brother plus set up costs for charging, I'll stay a fossil and drive a fossil quite frankly as both price and lack of range together with charging times just makes it totally impractical for my world.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/2023-ldv-et60-pricing-and-features-australia-first-electric-ute
And so many people. But that is probably a temporary issue - lower costs would occur once there is more uptake.
 
And so many people. But that is probably a temporary issue - lower costs would occur once there is more uptake.
Initial cost of vehicle no doubt, but getting towing capacity up to around at least double if not three times current capacity to make it acceptable for a commercial vehicle without sacrificing distance capability is going to be a big ask ? Loads / weight is what drains battery. In honesty I don't see much point in even building a commercial style vehicle that will only tow a garden trailer as it for me appears rather pointless to do so? Then to bang a price tag on it like that even more so . 🤔
 
Lots of discussion around EVs, costs, charging, range, repair costs etc and the need to move to renewable energy, but, and I may be missing something but where are we going to get the energy for our heavy industries, manufacturers etc if we do not continue with the use of fossil fuels.
Is small scale nuclear an option?
I can’t see solar, nor wind providing the energy needs required for high energy users, particularly those who run 24/7.
 
Lots of discussion around EVs, costs, charging, range, repair costs etc and the need to move to renewable energy, but, and I may be missing something but where are we going to get the energy for our heavy industries, manufacturers etc if we do not continue with the use of fossil fuels.
Is small scale nuclear an option?
I can’t see solar, nor wind providing the energy needs required for high energy users, particularly those who run 24/7.
Good question I think. I am not sure if small-scale nuclear will do, we may need large scale. But we need to discuss these issues seriously now, not when we are running out of fuel and having to close certain areas every day as with South Africa's load shedding.
 
Grubstake would love to know the weight of battery ? They mention forklift to change but 🤔
 
Swapping batteries may be a good idea for big transport firms but not for individual motorists.
Look what happens when gas bottles are exchanged rather than re-charged. A camper owner with an empty gas bottle with a residual life of three years is given in exchange a bottle with a residual life of only two and a half years. Take it or leave it. Over the years the driver continues to get gyped, just a little at a time, but it all adds up. Swapping electric car batteries will attract the same detriment.
 
Swapping batteries may be a good idea for big transport firms but not for individual motorists.
Look what happens when gas bottles are exchanged rather than re-charged. A camper owner with an empty gas bottle with a residual life of three years is given in exchange a bottle with a residual life of only two and a half years. Take it or leave it. Over the years the driver continues to get gyped, just a little at a time, but it all adds up. Swapping electric car batteries will attract the same detriment.
Your first comment is indisputable.

The second is unlikely - if you get your gas bottles from a typical swap system at a service station, they simply remove them from service as they get old, and take your old one regardless of condition . It is very unlikely that you will be given one that nowhere will then take when empty. And with expensive vehicle batteries there will no doubt be greater protection. But unless there is some very dramatic change in the size of batteries (highly unlikely) it will only be fleets doing it anyway, not the average motorist (as you say).
 
In ya dreams ,all this ev rubbish is fairytale stuff and this country was built on coal fire power and petroleum thats something solar will never accomplish 🤔
 
In ya dreams ,all this ev rubbish is fairytale stuff and this country was built on coal fire power and petroleum thats something solar will never accomplish 🤔
Your grandchildren will probably only know EV cars. However the electricity used by those cars will possibly still be partly coal generated. Petroleum may disappear, and for strategic reasons (and Australia's economic reasons - we have bugger-all) it will be no great loss.
 

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