Lithium battery fires

[EVIE/BEE]

Don't believe all the rubbish you read.
I am personally a battery sceptic. We are repeatedly being told the technology is improving, maybe so but it gets back to the scientific fact, (joules in equals joules out).
The forever hopefuls are searching for a perpetual motion solution. It's just not possible. What we have right now is all we're going to get.

 

[user 4386]

Don't believe all the rubbish you read.
I am personally a battery sceptic. We are repeatedly being told the technology is improving, maybe so but it gets back to the scientific fact, (joules in equals joules out).
The forever hopefuls are searching for a perpetual motion solution. It's just not possible. What we have right now is all we're going to get.

Petrol tanks like batteries are simply means of temporary storage. I think the point is that electricity does not produce CO2 when you make it from renewables, nor when you use it (unlike petrol). And the electricity can be generated when there is surplus load available (in theory, we will see...). I don't have a problem with that logic, just with practicalities and economics. I suspect EVs will become widely used within cities but there are many hiccups to overcome before using them in a big way in rural areas or off-road. Recharge points, time to recharge, distance that one can travel per charge (especially for heavy vehicles or while towing). battery damage off-road. Most of these are not issues around Sydney or Melbourne - if you can afford to buy one to start with. And one needs to not lose sight of the facy that they do appear to be significantly cheaper to run even allowing for things like battery replacement every 8 years or so (I would like to see a detailed breakdown of that though). And it is not an unreasonable assumption that both cars and batteries will become cheaper with greater use (at present we have a bit more than 50,000 on the road compared with more than 1.5 million hydrocarbon vehicles) So the argument is as much economic. If (and I suspect ultimately when) any remaining issues are ironed out for urban driving I expect to see significant take-up - you have to really love hydrocarbons to want to pay twice as much to take kids to school or visit the supermarket.

There are also strategic issues - you can generate renewable energy all over the place but Australia has only two weeks or so of petrol and diesel at any time. A naval blockade with not a shot fired could bring us to our knees, supplies do not have to be cut off at the source. And distribution is under the control of benevolent bureaucracies like Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, Iraq, UAR, Kuwait, Angola, Congo Republic, Nigeria, Libya and Venezuela The only significant benign sources are USA - that is unlikely to export, they need it themselves, and Canada - that might supply some.

 

[Mr Magoo]

Toyota are using nickel metal hydride batteries in some of the vehicles. Are they safer?

This gives some insight Re fire risk:
https://bcycle.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/EU-Fire-Risks-Associated-with-Batteries-2012.pdf
FYI. Repairing an old NiMH Toyota battery is/was not that complicated (With understanding). The cells used were of DD size in stacks, five IIRC.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I did so daily - they were coming in the opposite direction in a brand new Discovery and had not checked.

It seems that a lot of people who are new to 4b's the first thing they do when they buy one is head bush with little or no knowledge of what is not covered in the Manuals,

I always use to cover the Rad with steel mozzie screen to keep the Natal grass at bay as well as making it easier to remove,

 

[user 22230]

It seems that a lot of people who are new to 4b's the first thing they do when they buy one is head bush with little or no knowledge of what is not covered in the Manuals,

I always use to cover the Rad with steel mozzie screen to keep the Natal grass at bay as well as making it easier to remove,

Those that should know do worse ? The mounts brackets are put where they are at time of build and the experts fit the items there ? Lights along with winch control box will have more effect on cooling than a few grass seeds in radiator core. Higher under bonnet temps never desirable, but even more so when second battery is situated there.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Those that should know do worse ? The mounts brackets are put where they are at time of build and the experts fit the items there ? Lights along with winch control box will have more effect on cooling than a few grass seeds in radiator core. Higher under bonnet temps never desirable, but even more so when second battery is situated there.
View attachment 5559

Nice setup, Awesome.

I alway check out and clean the heat shields and the Bash plates underneath also for vines and grass getting wrapped around the Diff Yokes and the pinion oil slinger plates covering the pinion seals, Ever since they started fitting Cats to vehicles is another issue with starting fires because they are designed to get extremely Hot so they can do their job, I would imagine that they could easily start a fire out in the bush.

 

[user 4386]

Nice setup, Awesome.

I alway check out and clean the heat shields and the Bash plates underneath also for vines and grass getting wrapped around the Diff Yokes and the pinion oil slinger plates covering the pinion seals, Ever since they started fitting Cats to vehicles is another issue with starting fires because they are designed to get extremely Hot so they can do their job, I would imagine that they could easily start a fire out in the bush.

I think these areas underneath are where most unnoticed fires start from spinifex.

 

[Nightjar]

Who do we believe? Report here 02/11/2022.
https://stopthesethings.com/2022/10...ther-part-of-our-inevitable-green-transition/

 

[user 4386]

Who do we believe? Report here 02/11/2022.
https://stopthesethings.com/2022/10...ther-part-of-our-inevitable-green-transition/

I would suggest that a group formed to fight windfarms that has progressed to opposing all renewable power might not be the most unbiased source of statistics (not that I see any statistics). At least they are honest:



Stats from Europe are the best info at present, but we really need a lot more reliably collected data.

"Data compiled by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and the US Department of Transportation shows that among all vehicle types, there’s an average of one vehicle fire per 19 million miles driven"

"from 2012-2020, there’s been one Tesla fire per 205 million miles traveled".


That would suggest that fires are 10 times as likely in non_EVs. But we need more data from around the world.

I suspect the real issue is the fear of new technology - but we will see. Usually disadvantages are overcome fairly readily - initially people used to walk in front of cars waving warning flags apparently (it was very early and brief" - they were called "locomotives on highways". The following was an early law:

“One of such persons, while any locomotive is in motion, shall precede such locomotive on foot by not less than sixty yards, and shall carry a red flag constantly to warn the riders and drivers of horses of the approach of such locomotives and shall signal the approach thereof when it shall be necessary to stop, and shall assist horses and carriages drawn by horses, passing the same.”

This was one group's proposal for State protection against these deadly menace (not enacted):

1. Automobiles traveling on country roads at night must send up a rocket every mile, then wait ten minutes for the road to clear. The driver may then proceed, with caution, blowing his horn and shooting off Roman candles, as before.
2. If the driver of an automobile sees a team of horses approaching, he is to stop, pulling over to one side of the road, and cover his machine with a blanket or dust cover which is painted or colored to blend into the scenery, and thus render the machine less noticeable.
3. In case a horse is unwilling to pass an automobile on the road, the driver of the car must take the machine apart as rapidly as possible and conceal the parts in the bushes.

However, "
the Locomotives on Highways Act.
This piece of legislation went further, by abolishing the necessity for a pedestrian preceding the motor car and, at the same time, allowed cars to travel at a speed of 14mph, although this was reduced to 12mph by the local government board.

We fairly soon added headlights, horns, better steering and they seem to be accepted now.

 

[David-Karratha]

Not sure an EV would be any worse than my new Hilux…
The new models have the diesel particulate filter injector burning off every few hundred kms. Buried in the manual, is a warning that this needs to be done manually, before driving off-road or through any type of vegetation. It also warns that anything (or anyone) can be burned by the extreme temperature of the exhaust pipe or it’s emitted gases.

 

[StormCamper]

Without knowing the exact details we will never know the full picture. Why is my new HPM 10a 10meter lead contacts too hot to touch with just 2000watts convection heater??????? That's just a sign of the times sadly, so many dangerous things in this world.
Given the extreme complexity of EVs and big installations there are bound to be fires, yet compared to the amount in circulation it's actually very small, maybe another decade or two and standards will get better???
I've been using li-ion since early 2000s, and the dangers are like the dangers in dirt bike riding, they are there, but you soon learn to live with it. As far as us mere mortals go...

With conventional li-ion you always choose a quality brand of cells like Sony, Samsung etc.
Cylindrical are the most safest by themselves over pouch. Most fires are from very rare and unavoidable manufacturer defects, and bad or faulty bms( you'd be amazed how cheap some drill battery bmses are, like no cell monitoring for every cell). The stories of laptops spontaneously catching fire are most likely the dangerous LCO and NCA chemistries, in general when the separators get thinner( higher capacity) they get dangerous due to things like defects and dentrites. Any chemistry that has Cobalt as a cathode material is more dangerous.
Nowadays NMC is becoming the norm, with almost as good capacity but noticable safer, yet risks will always remain. Remember in parallel you effectively can't monitor each individual cell.
LiFePO4 has much higher safety, the risk of fires is vanishingly small, but still I always choose reputable brands like Winston, sinopoly, calb, they have a long reasonable track record. I test my cells mainly for internal impedance and voltages under the manufacturers rated discharge test. I don't believe in drop ins or canned solutions as you can't access the cells to check the condition of cells physically and "internally". Probably the biggest fear for me is the cells venting and burning up expensive gear, this is a worry for me with a portable power system, as some of these things whether diy or store brought can cost up to 10 gees.

 

[Moneybox]

Not sure an EV would be any worse than my new Hilux…
The new models have the diesel particulate filter injector burning off every few hundred kms. Buried in the manual, is a warning that this needs to be done manually, before driving off-road or through any type of vegetation. It also warns that anything (or anyone) can be burned by the extreme temperature of the exhaust pipe or it’s emitted gases.

Yes and the nice clean exhaust emission test is done between burn-offs so all the crap is stored until it is later released unmonitored.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Without knowing the exact details we will never know the full picture. Why is my new HPM 10a 10meter lead contacts too hot to touch with just 2000watts convection heater??????? That's just a sign of the times sadly, so many dangerous things in this world.
Given the extreme complexity of EVs and big installations there are bound to be fires, yet compared to the amount in circulation it's actually very small, maybe another decade or two and standards will get better???
I've been using li-ion since early 2000s, and the dangers are like the dangers in dirt bike riding, they are there, but you soon learn to live with it. As far as us mere mortals go...

With conventional li-ion you always choose a quality brand of cells like Sony, Samsung etc.
Cylindrical are the most safest by themselves over pouch. Most fires are from very rare and unavoidable manufacturer defects, and bad or faulty bms( you'd be amazed how cheap some drill battery bmses are, like no cell monitoring for every cell). The stories of laptops spontaneously catching fire are most likely the dangerous LCO and NCA chemistries, in general when the separators get thinner( higher capacity) they get dangerous due to things like defects and dentrites. Any chemistry that has Cobalt as a cathode material is more dangerous.
Nowadays NMC is becoming the norm, with almost as good capacity but noticable safer, yet risks will always remain. Remember in parallel you effectively can't monitor each individual cell.
LiFePO4 has much higher safety, the risk of fires is vanishingly small, but still I always choose reputable brands like Winston, sinopoly, calb, they have a long reasonable track record. I test my cells mainly for internal impedance and voltages under the manufacturers rated discharge test. I don't believe in drop ins or canned solutions as you can't access the cells to check the condition of cells physically and "internally". Probably the biggest fear for me is the cells venting and burning up expensive gear, this is a worry for me with a portable power system, as some of these things whether diy or store brought can cost up to 10 gees.

Sounds like you need a lower wattage heater and a 13A cable, which can handle 3120w @ 240v.

I reduced all my gear to low wattage appliance where my heaters when I need them are 600/900w and 900/1500w,

 

[user 22230]

Petrol tanks like batteries are simply means of temporary storage. I think the point is that electricity does not produce CO2 when you make it from renewables, nor when you use it (unlike petrol). And the electricity can be generated when there is surplus load available (in theory, we will see...). I don't have a problem with that logic, just with practicalities and economics. I suspect EVs will become widely used within cities but there are many hiccups to overcome before using them in a big way in rural areas or off-road. Recharge points, time to recharge, distance that one can travel per charge (especially for heavy vehicles or while towing). battery damage off-road. Most of these are not issues around Sydney or Melbourne - if you can afford to buy one to start with. And one needs to not lose sight of the facy that they do appear to be significantly cheaper to run even allowing for things like battery replacement every 8 years or so (I would like to see a detailed breakdown of that though). And it is not an unreasonable assumption that both cars and batteries will become cheaper with greater use (at present we have a bit more than 50,000 on the road compared with more than 1.5 million hydrocarbon vehicles) So the argument is as much economic. If (and I suspect ultimately when) any remaining issues are ironed out for urban driving I expect to see significant take-up - you have to really love hydrocarbons to want to pay twice as much to take kids to school or visit the supermarket.

There are also strategic issues - you can generate renewable energy all over the place but Australia has only two weeks or so of petrol and diesel at any time. A naval blockade with not a shot fired could bring us to our knees, supplies do not have to be cut off at the source. And distribution is under the control of benevolent bureaucracies like Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, Iraq, UAR, Kuwait, Angola, Congo Republic, Nigeria, Libya and Venezuela The only significant benign sources are USA - that is unlikely to export, they need it themselves, and Canada - that might supply some.

If this happens then perhaps they would uncap all the capped wells in the Gulf and Bass strait ? The weak link may be not enough refineries to refine it quick enough to supply demand Have a mate who is skipper of an oil rig ........................... we probably have about three years of "untapped" oil.

Australia has proven reserves equivalent to 2.9 times its annual consumption. This means that, without imports, there would be about 3 years of oil left (at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves).

 

[user 4386]

If this happens then perhaps they would uncap all the capped wells in the Gulf and Bass strait ? The weak link may be not enough refineries to refine it quick enough to supply demand Have a mate who is skipper of an oil rig ........................... we probably have about three years of "untapped" oil.

Australia has proven reserves equivalent to 2.9 times its annual consumption. This means that, without imports, there would be about 3 years of oil left (at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves).

There are no wells with significant oil reserves waiting to be uncapped unfortunately - most of Australia's oil is condensate recovered from gas production. The 2,9 figure is quite possibly correct - we are an oil importer,

More to the point, we closed our last petroleum refinery and only keep a few weeks of fuel in storage.

 

[user 22230]

Yeah nah can't run with that sorry.

 

[ozboy]

DOH!!

 

[grubstake]

A GPS was placed in its bracket in the windshield and left in the sun.
The lithium battery overheated and exploded .
Looks like a good lesson to learn.
I bet this also applies to cell phones, tablets, digital cameras, and other devices that use lithium batteries. You think this may be a reason why the US Postal Service no longer will ship electronic devices that contain lithium batteries?

Mate, that's just not true. Common lithium batteries are unaffected by the most recent USPS ruling, but specific categories have to be specially labelled and sent by surface mail only. All are still postable.
https://www.ecommercebytes.com/2022/06/03/usps-imposes-new-limits-on-used-electronics/

 

[David-Karratha]

A GPS was placed in its bracket in the windshield and left in the sun.

The lithium battery overheated and exploded .
Looks like a good lesson to learn.
I bet this also applies to cell phones, tablets, digital cameras, and other devices that use lithium batteries. You think this may be a reason why the US Postal Service no longer will ship electronic devices that contain lithium batteries?



View attachment 6055

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View attachment 6059

I’m sure there was no intent to deceive, however these photos DO NOT show a fire caused by a GPS battery (or an iPhone battery). See this article from Snopes which explains it further.
This is a great example of how stories get spread around and how urban myths become “accepted wisdom” or ”fact”.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fire-screen/

 

[ozboy]

Mate, that's just not true. Common lithium batteries are unaffected by the most recent USPS ruling, but specific categories have to be specially labelled and sent by surface mail only. All are still postable.
https://www.ecommercebytes.com/2022/06/03/usps-imposes-new-limits-on-used-electronics/

okay, thanks for that..didn't know. should have checked, lesson learned { and post deleted!}