Lithium battery fires

[Capertee gold]

Same with the tool batteries too .my mate who is a gardener went up to stihl and bought a couple of 9 amp hour batteries for his tools ,while driving home mind you the batteries were still in there packages secure on the back seat and less than 5 mins from his house one of the batteries burst into flames and totally destroyed the inside of his brand new Isuzu dmax ,and they were just sitting on the back seat thank God stihl covered the cost of a complete brand new interior fit out of the vehicle.

 

[davsgold]

Does the GPZ, WM12, SPO1, Samsung mobile use lithium? I leave them charging overnight.

yes mate, all those thing you mention have Lithium batteries of some sort, two main types are Lithium-ion and Lithium-ion Polymer, best practice is not leave them on charge when there done, also remember that the laptop computer is also running a Lithium battery as well, how many people leave them on charge I wonder

cheers dave

 

[user 4386]

yes mate, all those thing you mention have Lithium batteries of some sort, two main types are Lithium-ion and Lithium-ion Polymer, best practice is not leave them on charge when there done, also remember that the laptop computer is also running a Lithium battery as well, how many people leave them on charge I wonder

cheers dave

Most such dangers can be minimized. I have chargers on a time switch, have the computer turn off after a certain time and have a smoke detector in the garage where I charge most batteries.

 

[Moneybox]

Perhaps this is why the GPX6000 takes about six hours to charge at a maximum charge rate of 1A.

 

[user 22230]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/aust...taskbar&cvid=edbd3108008743bfd8ee26a3da3bd82d

 

[user 4386]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/aust...taskbar&cvid=edbd3108008743bfd8ee26a3da3bd82d

He was actually using water to try and neutralize damaged lithium battery cells - a definite no-no

 

[Ridge Runner]

1. One of the reasons I bought a metal cased Lithium Deep Cycle, steel/alum don't burn well, plastic do......

2. As mentioned over charging or too big a load for too long aint good......

3. Just because it says you can charge at a certain rate,, doesn't mean you should. Mine says 0.5C, but I charge at 0.3C. Takes longer, but kinder to the battery and safer.

4. The bigger reason is battery quality, there are a lot of cheaply constructed lithiums as well as AGM's. Then the reliability of the lithium internal BMS.

Like caravans, lithium manufacturers are poorly regulated in Oz, notwithstanding some of the imported crap we seem to get in this country.

Thats One reason why I bought the Big PowerOak SoGen because the case is Extruded/Forged Aluminium Not Folded Alloy sheet,

It can with a charger that is around 0.12C or 216w and I also bought the Bigger Factory Charger that is around 0.24C or 400wh Vs the SoGens 1800wh, If that is what the C rating of those charger works out to be,

As soon as the PowerOak is fully charged the SoGens shuts down and the Charger also Shuts down so it is impossible to over charge the Lithium Batteries Inside, The Factory 200/220w charger is Fan cooled but the 400w charger is not fan cooled but even in the summer the 400w charger does not get about 43*c +/-,

Neither the PowerOak EB180 or the Dometic PLB40 SoGens go up 1*c when charging they just stay at the ambiant temp, The EB180 when it is being used if the watts being draw On DC gets up to around 80w then the internal fan kicks in and also when the AC power being drawn goes over 400w the fan then kicks in and also when Charging, Also It puts up around 23 Error Codes which are in the manual so you can see whats going on the moment something is wrong

I pick the EB Series over the AC series because of the Industrial build quality and the point it is just about getting on with the job, where as the AC series is all plastic and has so much stuff the normal person would bever use.

 

[Capertee gold]

He was actually using water to try and neutralize damaged lithium battery cells - a definite no-no

Yep lithium batteries and water don't mix,gezz wee did this exact experiment in science class in the 80s ,
I'd like to see what the out come would be if a EV had a major crash and ruptured it's battery cells in heavy rain

 

[user 22230]

Thats One reason why I bought the Big PowerOak SoGen because the case is Extruded/Forged Aluminium Not Folded Alloy sheet,

It can with a charger that is around 0.12C or 216w and I also bought the Bigger Factory Charger that is around 0.24C or 400wh Vs the SoGens 1800wh, If that is what the C rating of those charger works out to be,

As soon as the PowerOak is fully charged the SoGens shuts down and the Charger also Shuts down so it is impossible to over charge the Lithium Batteries Inside, The Factory 200/220w charger is Fan cooled but the 400w charger is not fan cooled but even in the summer the 400w charger does not get about 43*c +/-,

Neither the PowerOak EB180 or the Dometic PLB40 SoGens go up 1*c when charging they just stay at the ambiant temp, The EB180 when it is being used if the watts being draw On DC gets up to around 80w then the internal fan kicks in and also when the AC power being drawn goes over 400w the fan then kicks in and also when Charging, Also It puts up around 23 Error Codes which are in the manual so you can see whats going on the moment something is wrong

I pick the EB Series over the AC series because of the Industrial build quality and the point it is just about getting on with the job, where as the AC series is all plastic and has so much stuff the normal person would bever use.

Your gear and info is all well and good RR but not all people have the resources or the inclination to put thousands of dollars into a power bank . Safety factors should be built in regardless of price in my opinion. It's like saying a 100K vehicle has brakes that will stop the vehicle quicker than a 10K vehicle, that would put a few people in the ***** If it's not safe then it shouldn't be allowed to be sold regardless of price? Lithium certainly has its advantages as in light weight and quick charge but for me the cons currently out weigh the pros of a standard battery set up.

 

[user 22230]

Yep lithium batteries and water don't mix,gezz wee did this exact experiment in science class in the 80s ,
I'd like to see what the out come would be if a EV had a major crash and ruptured it's battery cells in heavy rain

Yep or after a thousand K trip on corrugated roads that has caused a case fracture that one was not aware of before the creek crossing = one smoked vehicle. In outback travel to get out and have to inspect your battery before every and any water entry just isn't really practical. Having seen many battery hold downs fail over the years, the battery bouncing around and suffering case damage is a real possibility in my view.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Your gear and info is all well and good RR but not all people have the resources or the inclination to put thousands of dollars into a power bank . Safety factors should be built in regardless of price in my opinion. It's like saying a 100K vehicle has brakes that will stop the vehicle quicker than a 10K vehicle, that would put a few people in the ***** If it's not safe then it shouldn't be allowed to be sold regardless of price? Lithium certainly has its advantages as in light weight and quick charge but for me the cons currently out weigh the pros of a standard battery set up.

I think you may have the wrong Idea about my resources, the worst thing why I bought it was because if I had fitted a Lithium Battery or a Second Battery It would of Voided my Vehicle Warranty and the only option I had was to use SoGens.

As for my Resources other Guys here spend 6-8 and 10K on Detectors, I don't have a use for such a machine, So my 6-8 or 10k goes on other Gadgets, It's a bit like Your Quad Bike and your $1600 tyres which are a necessity because of what you do But I don't have a use for one but I'd still Love to have one just the same, and like a lot of folks here we're all in the same boat.

 

[Capertee gold]

I'm no expert but if we look at the make up of these batteries,, LIPo 4 ,
Lithium Li ,Iron Fe and Phosphate PO4 ,we'll surely the phosphate is the most dangerous component hence the amount of fires caused by this new tech ,I remember not long ago when Samsung had a major problem with a few of the phone batteries that would burst into flames and only Thursday at St Ignatius' College in Sydney a lithium battery line marking matching burst into flames whilst on charge ,which left half a million dollars in damages, I guess like everything new it take time to perfect but hey I'm no expert

 

[Ridge Runner]

Thats why top quality chargers are important,

Most Lithium batteries won't charge if the battery temp is below 0*c or above 50*, If the battery is left in sunlight or behind glass they can easily reach 50*c, Dometic say the opperating / Ambiant range of their PLB is between 0*c and 45*c, And other brands are between 0*c and 40*c which I call BS because they work just as well in Vehicles when the Temp inside the vehicle can hit 40, 50, and 60*c+,

Another set of figures is with my Noco GB 150 Boost Lithium Jump Pack, Where it's Charging Temps are between 0*c and 40*c YET it's Opperating and storage Temps are Quoted As -20*c up to 50*c for Storage And Opperating Temps, So a lot of these quoted figure vary from company to company and product to product, Here's 3 Products with 3 sets of figures.

With such a wide range of figures it is no wonder why people are having batteries go up in flames, when really there should be a global standard for all products because I am sure a GPZ in bright sunlight gets well above 40*c around mid day.

 

[user 4386]

View attachment 5376I'm no expert but if we look at the make up of these batteries,, LIPo 4 ,
Lithium Li ,Iron Fe and Phosphate PO4 ,we'll surely the phosphate is the most dangerous component hence the amount of fires caused by this new tech ,I remember not long ago when Samsung had a major problem with a few of the phone batteries that would burst into flames and only Thursday at St Ignatius' College in Sydney a lithium battery line marking matching burst into flames whilst on charge ,which left half a million dollars in damages, I guess like everything new it take time to perfect but hey I'm no expert

Phosphate itself is not an issue without the lithium. Even lithium metal (or sodium metal) without any phosphate present react violently with water. Lithium phosphate itself is effectively insoluble in water, but lithium ions react with water.

 

[user 4386]

Thats why top quality chargers are important,

Most Lithium batteries won't charge if the battery temp is below 0*c or above 50*, If the battery is left in sunlight or behind glass they can easily reach 50*c, Dometic say the opperating / Ambiant range of their PLB is between 0*c and 45*c, And other brands are between 0*c and 40*c which I call BS because they work just as well in Vehicles when the Temp inside the vehicle can hit 40, 50, and 60*c+,

Another set of figures is with my Noco GB 150 Boost Lithium Jump Pack, Where it's Charging Temps are between 0*c and 40*c YET it's Opperating and storage Temps are Quoted As -20*c up to 50*c for Storage And Opperating Temps, So a lot of these quoted figure vary from company to company and product to product, Here's 3 Products with 3 sets of figures.

With such a wide range of figures it is no wonder why people are having batteries go up in flames, when really there should be a global standard for all products because I am sure a GPZ in bright sunlight gets well above 40*c around mid day.

Undamaged lithium batteries do not go up in flames, damaged batteries can (and one in every 300,000 or so lithium batteries can be damaged).
Damaged petrol tanks can also go up in flames - we accept that. The question is really do more lithium batteries go up in flames compared with petrol tanks (i.e. with many things like this we accept the risk if we consider the chances of it happening are low enough). Time will tell, but the statistics don't look all that bad for EVs so far. But they are emphasized in the press - a petrol or gas vehicle catching fire is no longer news (remember how the press was focused on vehicle gas fires when gas first became popular).



Talking in numbers, on an average, gas station fires cause 48 civilian injuries, 2 civilian deaths, and $20 million in property damage every year in the USA, and 61% of these involve vehicles. In 2021, there were around 174,000 highway vehicle fires reported in the United States. (which has dropped from 3 times that number 30 years despite an increase in cars on the road).

 

[Capertee gold]

Phosphate itself is not an issue without the lithium. Even lithium metal (or sodium metal) without any phosphate present react violently with water. Lithium phosphate itself is effectively insoluble in water, but lithium ions react with water.

Yep my bad I got that wrong phosphate is actually used as a fire retardant.
I must have got it confused with phosphorus which will ignite when in contact with oxygen, yeah my mistake

 

[user 22230]

Undamaged lithium batteries do not go up in flames, damaged batteries can (and one in every 300,000 or so lithium batteries can be damaged).
Damaged petrol tanks can also go up in flames - we accept that. The question is really do more lithium batteries go up in flames compared with petrol tanks (i.e. with many things like this we accept the risk if we consider the chances of it happening are low enough). Time will tell, but the statistics don't look all that bad for EVs so far. But they are emphasized in the press - a petrol or gas vehicle catching fire is no longer news (remember how the press was focused on vehicle gas fires when gas first became popular).

View attachment 5379

Talking in numbers, on an average, gas station fires cause 48 civilian injuries, 2 civilian deaths, and $20 million in property damage every year in the USA, and 61% of these involve vehicles. In 2021, there were around 174,000 highway vehicle fires reported in the United States. (which has dropped from 3 times that number 30 years despite an increase in cars on the road).

Maybe the stats hide the truth a little perhaps ? Without writing paragraphs, in a petrol vehicle fire, the fuel is not the ignition source but merely the fuel that burns after it is ignited. (The fuel has to meet an ignition source) This ignition could be from a multitude of things from a wiring short to static electricity. My understanding is a lithium battery going up in smoke is that it is in fact the ignition source and the fuel also.
As the "stats" give a % likely to ignite BUT those stats fail to reveal that .03 electric vehicle fires are probably 100% caused by the battery perhaps? The 1.5% for gas powered may have 50 different reasons for the vehicle fire ie ignition source. So for my money the stats show nothing apart from how many vehicles catch fire. They need to show the reason they caught fire to hold any worth in relation to Lithium being safe or not I think
In short Lithium batteries JUST catch fire, petrol doesn't JUST catch fire, it needs an ignition source to do so.

 

[user 4386]

Maybe the stats hide the truth a little perhaps ? Without writing paragraphs, in a petrol vehicle fire, the fuel is not the ignition source but merely the fuel that burns after it is ignited. (The fuel has to meet an ignition source) This ignition could be from a multitude of things from a wiring short to static electricity. My understanding is a lithium battery going up in smoke is that it is in fact the ignition source and the fuel also.
As the "stats" give a % likely to ignite BUT those stats fail to reveal that .03 electric vehicle fires are probably 100% caused by the battery perhaps? The 1.5% for gas powered may have 50 different reasons for the vehicle fire ie ignition source. So for my money the stats show nothing apart from how many vehicles catch fire. They need to show the reason they caught fire to hold any worth in relation to Lithium being safe or not I think
In short Lithium batteries JUST catch fire, petrol doesn't JUST catch fire, it needs an ignition source to do so.

I agree that we need more detail. But the number of EV fires overall seems very low. Both petrol and Li batteries do need something else to start them though, undamaged batteries do not go up in flames, and most damage with EVS occurs in the car. Such as when charging (same as most gas station fires occur during filling).

25 EV fires per 100,000 sales is very low. The fact remains that it happens 60 times more often in gas vehicles and 130 times more often in hybrids is still a measure of the chance it will happen to you, regardless of whether it originates in the battery or not (and evidence is that you need a damaged battery same as you need a damaged petrol tank). The chance it will happen is more relevant to me than the ignition source. I await a couple of years more stats, especially from Europe as well. I think one reason for my uncertainty is that Li batteries also cause fires in other than cars, but more effort had gone into the battery design in cars.

I have other issues with the stats though - basing it in fires per 100,000 cars sold. A better statistic might be fires per 100,000 cars of each type involved in accidents. or per 100,000 km driven by each type (since I suspect most EVs sold to date do not get the same mileage per year run up).

 

[grumpybum]

He was actually using water to try and neutralize damaged lithium battery cells - a definite no-no

We had a lithium big battery fire near geelong in 2021 and it took over 10.000000 ltres of water to bring it under control in europe they pick up the whole car and drown them in special containers full of water as there is no other way of putting them out

 

[bicter]

We had a lithium big battery fire near geelong in 2021 and it took over 10.000000 ltres of water to bring it under control in europe they pick up the whole car and drown them in special containers full of water as there is no other way of putting them out

They used the whole ocean to put this one out
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...g-bentley-audi-porsche-cars-sinks/9342408002/