:lol: I was going to mention ktmman's Brother.... Now that would be one fellow who should try Divining... :Y:
LW...
LW...
Divining rods for sapphire hunting
- Thread starter Cordie
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I reckon it relates to the ability that a true expert has to make decisions based on informed intuition.
Some years ago, Stuart and Hubert Dreyfus described a model of skills acquisition based on the transition from a novice, through a number of stages, to expert.
The model has the following stages.
1. Novice
"rigid adherence to taught rules or plans"
no exercise of "discretionary judgment"
2. Advanced beginner
limited "situational perception"
all aspects of work treated separately with equal importance
3. Competent
"coping with crowdedness" (multiple activities, accumulation of information)
some perception of actions in relation to goals
deliberate planning
formulates routines
4. Proficient
holistic view of situation
prioritizes importance of aspects
"perceives deviations from the normal pattern"
employs maxims for guidance, with meanings that adapt to the situation at hand
5. Expert
transcends reliance on rules, guidelines, and maxims
"intuitive grasp of situations based on deep, tacit understanding"
has "vision of what is possible"
uses "analytical approaches" in new situations or in case of problems
Basically, a novice knows nothing, and in the case of prospecting will set up the banker or pan with out rhyme or reason. They might get lucky, but not often.
As they progress, they learn some rules of thumb (heuristics in the lingo) like looking at inside bends and the downstream sides of obstacles, looking for indicators like black sand, ironstone, quartz and so on. The decision making process is like ticking off from a list of check points.
As they progress, they learn the ability to sum up a more holistic understanding of the whole situation of a creek, to identify the likely gold line, or a likely detecting area, and can do so more rapidly and effectively. They don't have to think explicitly through the list, but probably always have it in mind.
As an expert, the prospector has an intuitive understanding of the situation, and can identify the promising locations without having to run through a list of rules of thumb or guidelines. They have a holistic and intuitive vision of the field, and a sixth sense of where gold or gems are likely to lie.
The process is from rule based thinking to context based intuition.
Some examples of expert based decision making include the expert cricket batsman who does not have to plan a shot, but instantly assesses the ball faced and moves into the correct position to play. As a grade cricketer this happened to me sometimes, I would just move into position instinctively and play a beautiful shot without having to think about it. If facing a fast bowler, you don't have time to think about the shot anyway. After years of practice the mind and body know what to do without thinking through the procedure to play the cover drive or late cut, for example. In my case, unfortunately, this did not happen often or efficiently enough.
A virtuoso soccer player has a deep and instinctive knowledge of field position, angles and the likely path of the ball. A chess grandmaster has an intuitive understanding of the board, which is why they can play games against many opponents blindfolded, and rarely lose.
The virtuoso musician can improvise instinctively without thinking about the chords and associated scales and harmonies. They just "know" and can execute what works, and can think at a higher and more creative level, without thinking about the individual notes to play against each chord.
A beginner in morse code has to hear the character, and mentally look up a table that says that _._. means C. As they get better, they just know that the sound da dit da dit is C, and as they get more proficient, they hear whole words, not individual characters. I knew an old bloke who could listen to pretty fast morse at around 30 words a minute while carrying on a conversation with you, and know exactly what the other operator was sending. It takes years and years of practice to do that.
Obviously, there is a lot more to it than this brief discussion.
What does this have to do with divining?
Well I reckon that if a diviner has any skill, it is nothing to do with any vibrations or the attraction of rods to gold or gems. Rather, their success is an indication of their deep intuitive knowledge of gold and gems, and where they are likely to be situated. It does not always work, of course, but the expert is far better at it than the novice and will be far more effective. There are probably very few true virtuoso prospectors, because it takes years in the field learning the required knowledge and skills and practicing them. Malcolm Gladwell formulated the 10,000 hour rule, suggesting that it takes around 10,000 hours of practice to get to the absolute top of human performance in just about any field of endeavor. While this has been criticised (there is a role for genetics and so on), it still takes a lot of time and work to become a top level mathematician, chess player, footballer, athlete or prospector for that matter.
This is probably the explanation of why 80% of the gold gets found by 20% of the prospectors, but it may also be an explanation for the apparent success of diviners. The good ones may just have a deeper and more intuitive understanding of gold and gem fields than the rest of us.
The same goes for "luck". I often go out prospecting with a bloke who has an uncanny and consistent ability to come up with a picker, even in places where they are an unlikely find. I also know that he thinks a lot about prospecting, and that consequently his ability has little to do with luck.
Some years ago, Stuart and Hubert Dreyfus described a model of skills acquisition based on the transition from a novice, through a number of stages, to expert.
The model has the following stages.
1. Novice
"rigid adherence to taught rules or plans"
no exercise of "discretionary judgment"
2. Advanced beginner
limited "situational perception"
all aspects of work treated separately with equal importance
3. Competent
"coping with crowdedness" (multiple activities, accumulation of information)
some perception of actions in relation to goals
deliberate planning
formulates routines
4. Proficient
holistic view of situation
prioritizes importance of aspects
"perceives deviations from the normal pattern"
employs maxims for guidance, with meanings that adapt to the situation at hand
5. Expert
transcends reliance on rules, guidelines, and maxims
"intuitive grasp of situations based on deep, tacit understanding"
has "vision of what is possible"
uses "analytical approaches" in new situations or in case of problems
Basically, a novice knows nothing, and in the case of prospecting will set up the banker or pan with out rhyme or reason. They might get lucky, but not often.
As they progress, they learn some rules of thumb (heuristics in the lingo) like looking at inside bends and the downstream sides of obstacles, looking for indicators like black sand, ironstone, quartz and so on. The decision making process is like ticking off from a list of check points.
As they progress, they learn the ability to sum up a more holistic understanding of the whole situation of a creek, to identify the likely gold line, or a likely detecting area, and can do so more rapidly and effectively. They don't have to think explicitly through the list, but probably always have it in mind.
As an expert, the prospector has an intuitive understanding of the situation, and can identify the promising locations without having to run through a list of rules of thumb or guidelines. They have a holistic and intuitive vision of the field, and a sixth sense of where gold or gems are likely to lie.
The process is from rule based thinking to context based intuition.
Some examples of expert based decision making include the expert cricket batsman who does not have to plan a shot, but instantly assesses the ball faced and moves into the correct position to play. As a grade cricketer this happened to me sometimes, I would just move into position instinctively and play a beautiful shot without having to think about it. If facing a fast bowler, you don't have time to think about the shot anyway. After years of practice the mind and body know what to do without thinking through the procedure to play the cover drive or late cut, for example. In my case, unfortunately, this did not happen often or efficiently enough.
A virtuoso soccer player has a deep and instinctive knowledge of field position, angles and the likely path of the ball. A chess grandmaster has an intuitive understanding of the board, which is why they can play games against many opponents blindfolded, and rarely lose.
The virtuoso musician can improvise instinctively without thinking about the chords and associated scales and harmonies. They just "know" and can execute what works, and can think at a higher and more creative level, without thinking about the individual notes to play against each chord.
A beginner in morse code has to hear the character, and mentally look up a table that says that _._. means C. As they get better, they just know that the sound da dit da dit is C, and as they get more proficient, they hear whole words, not individual characters. I knew an old bloke who could listen to pretty fast morse at around 30 words a minute while carrying on a conversation with you, and know exactly what the other operator was sending. It takes years and years of practice to do that.
Obviously, there is a lot more to it than this brief discussion.
What does this have to do with divining?
Well I reckon that if a diviner has any skill, it is nothing to do with any vibrations or the attraction of rods to gold or gems. Rather, their success is an indication of their deep intuitive knowledge of gold and gems, and where they are likely to be situated. It does not always work, of course, but the expert is far better at it than the novice and will be far more effective. There are probably very few true virtuoso prospectors, because it takes years in the field learning the required knowledge and skills and practicing them. Malcolm Gladwell formulated the 10,000 hour rule, suggesting that it takes around 10,000 hours of practice to get to the absolute top of human performance in just about any field of endeavor. While this has been criticised (there is a role for genetics and so on), it still takes a lot of time and work to become a top level mathematician, chess player, footballer, athlete or prospector for that matter.
This is probably the explanation of why 80% of the gold gets found by 20% of the prospectors, but it may also be an explanation for the apparent success of diviners. The good ones may just have a deeper and more intuitive understanding of gold and gem fields than the rest of us.
The same goes for "luck". I often go out prospecting with a bloke who has an uncanny and consistent ability to come up with a picker, even in places where they are an unlikely find. I also know that he thinks a lot about prospecting, and that consequently his ability has little to do with luck.
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I propose a double blind study situated deep in the Atacama desert. One of the driest places on earth (1-3mm rainfall annually, if you're lucky).This will radically reduce the instances of chance and guess work because any water that is there flows in very discreet small underground channels. If a dowser has a success rate of more than 50% in a place like this than it would be conclusive proof that dowsing works.
I suspect the experiment would end with test subjects slowly going mad, surrounded by a sea of empty drill holes.
The reality (my reality/opinion) is water is as inert a substance as they come. There are no special fields emitted that influence the rods, water doesn't have a guiding spirit and humans haven't evolved sufficiently enough to detect discreet shifts in the fields that govern our world. Its just 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Mind you, 2 of the most abundant elements in the observable universe. Superstition is imposition by a carbon based life-form on a an inert substance. i.e wishful thinking (and, lack of, or underdevelopment of, critical analysis faculties and knowledge)
I suspect the experiment would end with test subjects slowly going mad, surrounded by a sea of empty drill holes.
The reality (my reality/opinion) is water is as inert a substance as they come. There are no special fields emitted that influence the rods, water doesn't have a guiding spirit and humans haven't evolved sufficiently enough to detect discreet shifts in the fields that govern our world. Its just 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Mind you, 2 of the most abundant elements in the observable universe. Superstition is imposition by a carbon based life-form on a an inert substance. i.e wishful thinking (and, lack of, or underdevelopment of, critical analysis faculties and knowledge)
hAyyoUinAU
Rick
Divining??????????
lol
About as accurate as tarot card readers.
What next, a genie?
Divining doesn't work, it is as much as a scam as deep air metal seekers scams.
It has never ever ever proven to work, so forget it.
We are in the year 2017.
My divining rod is called a Minelab SDC 2300 or GPZ 7000.
Actually I think a metal detector from Jaycar would have more chance of finding gold than some con artist or deluded person with rods.
That would be a real test, $100 detector vs Rods
lol
About as accurate as tarot card readers.
What next, a genie?
Divining doesn't work, it is as much as a scam as deep air metal seekers scams.
It has never ever ever proven to work, so forget it.
We are in the year 2017.
My divining rod is called a Minelab SDC 2300 or GPZ 7000.
Actually I think a metal detector from Jaycar would have more chance of finding gold than some con artist or deluded person with rods.
That would be a real test, $100 detector vs Rods
So who gets the feel good award? The bloke who finds a $50000 sapphire because he thought his $2 divining rods helped him find the spot or the bloke who spent $9000 on a zed to find a few bucks worth of gold? :lol:
The bloke I watched divining had 1100ct of sapphires for a few days digging and was adamant that his rods told him to dig right on that spot.
I'm not saying it works but you gotta wonder when you see stuff like that.
The bloke I watched divining had 1100ct of sapphires for a few days digging and was adamant that his rods told him to dig right on that spot.
I'm not saying it works but you gotta wonder when you see stuff like that.
hAyyoUinAU
Rick
Heatho said:
Oh god!!!
Dude are you serious??
Wow, no wonder. All good. Believe in your unicorns. Whatever.
It has been proven to be a scam, or it is all in the peoples head. What the???
The rods only move because the persons body makes them move... PERIOD!!!!!
Go sell your ice to eskimos, like I care. $2 rods versus a GPZ..... bahahahahahahahahahaha
Your zed can't find sapphires, so who's got the better gemhunting tools, $2 worth of metal rods or $9000 for a piece of gear that is equally useless at finding gemstones. 
I'm a sceptic myself, I don't believe in divining.
I'm a sceptic myself, I don't believe in divining.
hAyyoUinAU
Rick
For gems, I would be better off saving my $2 and embarrassment and actually do some research, both Theory and out in the field.
So no, my ZED won't find sapphires, but neither will no rods.
So no, my ZED won't find sapphires, but neither will no rods.
hAyyoUinAU said:
Tell that to the bloke that had 1100ct of sapphires. :Y:
Anyone who just found that many stones won't give a toss what you think and certainly won't be embarrassed. :lol:
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Heatho said:
And this is exactly why dowsing regardless of how valid it is or isn't persists - dowsers just keep on finding what they are looking for, often with strike rates well above what we would expect from chance.
My opinion remains that the greater chance is that it's a combination of luck and people who have developed a shrewd eye for geographic features that indicate a higher likelyhood of the presence of water or whatever, thus increasing their chances of success - but I do remain open to the (smaller) possibility that there is something else happening which will someday be scientifically expalined.
Science regularly witnesses the unexplainable. For example, on rare and completely irregular occasions, the great salt pans in the interior of Australia fill up after once a decade or so rains. Despite being a great distance from the coast, within a very short time - sometimes 48hrs or less from memory - the epheremal lakes are swarming with huge numbers of seabirds. A similar sized drop is noted in seabird numbers on closest coastal strips, sometimes nearly 1000km distant - the birds at the seashore up and leave and head for the bonanza of the newly-filled lakes.
How do they know the lakes have filled? There is no seasonality to it, it is completely irregular and may only happen once in a decade. There are no signs whatsoever at the coast that anything has happened such a huge distance to the inland - how do they know?
There's a theory that birds can hear infrasound and have heard the storms that filled the lakes from all that distance away - but as yet, no one knows how they know.
But the point is that they do know somehow, and continue to do what would be utterly impossible for us. There is nothing supernatural in the birds ability to know when the lakes have filled, there is a scientific reason - but exactly what that reason is, science has yet to discover. One day we will know, but right now biologists remain baffled as to the ability of these animals to know.
While the chance may be small, it may be that dowsing falls into a similar realm.
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hAyyo...My dad used to dowse, and he nutted it out that it's the body that reacts to that specific item, and that the dowsing rods are the 'meter', magnifying the bodies reaction - He reckoned it was sort off like an arc reflex in moments of danger...then there's the autonomic nervous system which works without us realising that it is working - dowsing I reckon is something similar.
hAyyoUinAU said:
LOL.... You need to speak to Andrew from Aussie Sapphire my Friend... He has a paddock full of Unicorns....
LW...
hAyyoUinAU
Rick
LoneWolf said:hAyyoUinAU said:
LOL.... You need to speak to Andrew from Aussie Sapphire my Friend... He has a paddock full of Unicorns....
LW...
Nah. He can keep his unicorns. And his rods. And his sapphires.
I couldn't care what he says or finds honestly, but claiming divining works is counter productive to anything.
STOP MISSLEADING PEOPLE with LIES or other peoples claims or lies.
PROVE IT.
There is 1 million dollars on offer to anybody who can prove their claims, and no one ever has. And when they tried, they used a whole bunch of excuses as to why it didn't work.
I thought this site was about factual information, not hocus pocus fairy stuff. Seriously. Like what the????
I have never heard so much garbage.
I'm out, this is weird.
Next they will be divining on a map...oh wait.. they do that too. lol
hAyyoUinAU
Rick
hAyyoUinAU
Rick
LMAO
hAyyoUinAU
Rick
Removed due to copyright issues. Post a link instead.
But wait, Andrew can do it hey???? OK
But wait, Andrew can do it hey???? OK
Seriously dude, what does it matter if people use dowsing or any other method to find what they are after? This thread was started by someone interested in the subject and you have turned it into an argument by calling members liars, not cool at all.
Having a go at someone in the sapphire industry you have never met is a pretty cheap shot also.
Having a go at someone in the sapphire industry you have never met is a pretty cheap shot also.
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Couldn't agree more Lefty. :Y:Lefty said:
hAyyoUinAU said:
Mate it is fine to express your opinion but mocking people's beliefs is not necessary. Please note the following rules.....
RULES said:
Please be respectful to other members of the forum. I am a skeptic myself so I just choose not to comment on the topic.
Thanks
Ramjet
