DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES and BUSH POWER

[Ded Driver]

My Lead Crystal battery has a MINIMUM charge requirement of 1/3 its rated AHr capacity. This means a 100AHr LC battery requires 33A min. I use a Projecta IDC45 (45A) DC-DC charger (from the alternator), so if my battery is half flat, on a good drive (like todays 600km) it is fully charged in about an hour! The IDC45 then switches to 'float' mode.

 

[condor22]

I treat Maximum charge rates the same as maximum tow rates, lol. Just cos it states my 4x4 will tow 3 ton, does not mean I should or it is the optimum for vehicle life. It's my experience that some conservative use is a better approach. As "they" say, "All things in moderation." I guess my justification for my figures, is the life I'm getting from mine.

RR Can I clarify, are you saying your Noco charger pulses 15.8 V when charging an AGM? If so, my opinion, way too high, most smart chargers in Boost are set to 14.4 V, some at 14.5. Those kinds of voltage are usually only used in a Desulphation mode.

One of the reasons I use a DC-DC in my 4by, the alternator is often at 15 V, at least the Redarc lowers this to 14.5 in Boost/Absorption. Here are some differences in smart chargers

BTW Redarc BCDC1220 DC-DC - Boost = 14.5 V - Float = 13.3 V
Projecta Intellicharge IC Series 240 VAC charger - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.8 V
Projecta IDC25 DC-DC + Solar - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.7 V
Voltech BC-1230P 240 VAC Charger - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.2 V
Victron MPPT 100/20 Solar Control - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.8 V
CTEK D250S DC-DC + Solar - Boost = 14.7 V - Float = 13.6 V
+ many more

You can see the differences in voltages, I think the CTEK is a little high for Boost/Absorption voltage. The Redarc and Voltech are the better Float voltage as these voltages are where an AGM begins to gas off. At 13.8, they definitely will gas.....

 

[Ridge Runner]

My Lead Crystal battery has a MINIMUM charge requirement of 1/3 its rated AHr capacity. This means a 100AHr LC battery requires 33A min. I use a Projecta IDC45 (45A) DC-DC charger (from the alternator), so if my battery is half flat, on a good drive (like todays 600km) it is fully charged in about an hour! The IDC45 then switches to 'float' mode.

Yeah I am dying to get my hands on a couple of those, At the moment they are about $1000 each over here, I am sure they are the right way to go,

I wonder if I can run one of those Projecta DC-DC chargers on my van with it having an AGM Battery with a matching Alternator, would the Projecta be able to cope with the high output of the Alternator ??

I am only stuffing about with this AGM because I had to replace it like for like, and while the weather is cold and raining I had nothing better to do,

I ran the repair mode again on the AGM and the battery is holding even higher voltage than I posted earlier, it's holding well over 12.9v.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I treat Maximum charge rates the same as maximum tow rates, lol. Just cos it states my 4x4 will tow 3 ton, does not mean I should or it is the optimum for vehicle life. It's my experience that some conservative use is a better approach. As "they" say, "All things in moderation." I guess my justification for my figures, is the life I'm getting from mine.

RR Can I clarify, are you saying your Noco charger pulses 15.8 V when charging an AGM? If so, my opinion, way too high, most smart chargers in Boost are set to 14.4 V, some at 14.5. Those kinds of voltage are usually only used in a Desulphation mode.

One of the reasons I use a DC-DC in my 4by, the alternator is often at 15 V, at least the Redarc lowers this to 14.5 in Boost/Absorption. Here are some differences in smart chargers

BTW Redarc BCDC1220 DC-DC - Boost = 14.5 V - Float = 13.3 V
Projecta Intellicharge IC Series 240 VAC charger - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.8 V
Projecta IDC25 DC-DC + Solar - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.7 V
Voltech BC-1230P 240 VAC Charger - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.2 V
Victron MPPT 100/20 Solar Control - Boost = 14.4 V - Float = 13.8 V
CTEK D250S DC-DC + Solar - Boost = 14.7 V - Float = 13.6 V
+ many more

You can see the differences in voltages, I think the CTEK is a little high for Boost/Absorption voltage. The Redarc and Voltech are the better Float voltage as these voltages are where an AGM begins to gas off. At 13.8, they definitely will gas.....

When you Compare your CTek Voltage @ 14.7 to My Noco @ over 15.7v that might appear odd or too high to you but when you consider with a fully Charged Battery my Alternator puts out 14.78+ V at Idle then the Noco's Output Voltage is closely matching what the Alternator puts out, With Lead Acid or AGM you need around 14.8v and above to keep the sulphide from building up and with Lead Acid batteries 14.8v will eat the Sulphide off of the plates According to Battery University, Noting that 14.4v will fully charge the battery but it will not remove the Sulphide and it is taking up to that 14.8 threshold that not only stops it but will remove it over time Which I why my Lead Acid Batteries Hold such high Voltage and their CCA's are over 12.5% higher than their Rating. If anything your CTek is not going High enough because it can't match the output of your Alternator,

Ok, Well when I installed the fully Charged AGM battery it was reading around 13.1v

Once installed I started the Van and let it run for about 10/15 minutes and at Idle the Multi meter was reading 14.78/14.79v.

When I first charged the "BAD" AGM on the Noco G26000 The Peak Voltage reached 15.039v and in the Repair mode it peaked at 15.935,

On the Second Charge it reached 15.060v and in the repair mode it peaked at 15.937v,

On the 3rd Charge it peaked at 16.020 and in the Repair mode it peaked at 16.115v,

All of these Voltages are what it reaches when it is in the equalization mode firing 1 second pulses in to the Battery and in the Repair mode the Noco Chargers regardless of their size will put out 16/16.5v in rapid pulses until the 4 hour repair mode has stopped and the better the condition of the battery the higher the voltage will peak,

All These Numbers do seem high But this is how NOCO set the Charging Profiles and I assume they know what they are doing because It seems to work better than anything else I have tried and I have managed to recover 2 X 80/800cca AGM Batteries and all of my FLA Batteries hold 13.35 to 13.40v after 24 hours Rest with nothing Connected only a Multi meter which allows me to run my Fridge for over 50 hours before the Voltage drops to 12.7+ Volts when using 2 FLA's in Parallel, using 3 runs it even longer,

On the Noco G26000 / 26A charger it has 11 Charge settings and 4 of them are AGM settings, For normal AGM Batteries like this one I am using the Lowest setting as per the manual states.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Please note that On the 3rd Charge that should read 15.020v, Not 16.020v. It's normal AGM Voltage is 14.8v but it peaks out just around 15.0v

You can read the Noco Manual here, https://no.co/g26000

 

[condor22]

I should note, I don't have all of the listed chargers, but do have their specs as I downloaded them when deciding which to buy.

The ones I have;
BTW Redarc BCDC1220 DC-DC - 2 off - In car and caravan
Voltech BC-1230P 240 VAC Charger - 240 VAC in caravan
Victron MPPT 100/20 Solar Control - Solar Controller in van
Ridge Ryder 10 A PWM solar controller - in car (not the ideal, but does the job and came with the panel)

Projecta Intellicharge IC Series 240 VAC charger (In my shed as replaced by the Voltech)

I chose Redarc over CTek as the Redarc input voltage range is 9 - 32 VDC whereas the CTek is 11.5 - 23.0.

Also, I got the Victron controller from my mate that is the electrical engineer. It's been reprogrammed to float at 13.3 V (from 13.8 V)

 

[Ded Driver]

My Lead Crystal battery has a MINIMUM charge requirement of 1/3 its rated AHr capacity. This means a 100AHr LC battery requires 33A min. I use a Projecta IDC45 (45A) DC-DC charger (from the alternator), so if my battery is half flat, on a good drive (like todays 600km) it is fully charged in about an hour! The IDC45 then switches to 'float' mode.

Yeah I am dying to get my hands on a couple of those, At the moment they are about $1000 each over here, I am sure they are the right way to go,
I wonder if I can run one of those Projecta DC-DC chargers on my van with it having an AGM Battery with a matching Alternator, would the Projecta be able to cope with the high output of the Alternator ??
I am only stuffing about with this AGM because I had to replace it like for like, and while the weather is cold and raining I had nothing better to do,
I ran the repair mode again on the AGM and the battery is holding even higher voltage than I posted earlier, it's holding well over 12.9v.

RR, the IDC25/IDC45 is designed for use in a vehicle. It only takes from the alternator what it needs to deliver to the battery.
Because they also have solar input, it prioritises that first, then adds whatever it needs from the alternator.
For example, if my battery is half flat & the IDC goes to 'Boost' mode to deliver the full 45A, & my solar panel is delivering 5A, then the IDC will also take an additional 40A from the alternator input.
Keeping this in mind, its important to have an alternator in good condition, & not overloaded. This is why I have a re-settable circuit breaker/fuse under the bonnet. When driving at night & running the full set of spotlights, I dont want the alternator to also have to try & deliver to the battery. so I switch it off, or I let it charge for an hour while only using the light bar (no spotties).

 

[Ridge Runner]

I should note, I don't have all of the listed chargers, but do have their specs as I downloaded them when deciding which to buy.

The ones I have;
BTW Redarc BCDC1220 DC-DC - 2 off - In car and caravan
Voltech BC-1230P 240 VAC Charger - 240 VAC in caravan
Victron MPPT 100/20 Solar Control - Solar Controller in van
Ridge Ryder 10 A PWM solar controller - in car (not the ideal, but does the job and came with the panel)

Projecta Intellicharge IC Series 240 VAC charger (In my shed as replaced by the Voltech)

I chose Redarc over CTek as the Redarc input voltage range is 9 - 32 VDC whereas the CTek is 11.5 - 23.0.

Also, I got the Victron controller from my mate that is the electrical engineer. It's been reprogrammed to float at 13.3 V (from 13.8 V)

I have Big Red which puts out 35/320A

and the Noco G26000/26A which does 12v/24v and It does 16v+ Lithium and 16v+ AGM Racing Batteries and Gel Cells as well as AGM+ and Lithium+ 12v Batteries which require a maximum Input Charge of 15.5v.

and the Noco G15000/15A This one does Normal and AGM and Lithium in 12 or 24v etc
and the Noco G3500/ 3.5A This little on does 6v/12v Normal, AGM and Lithium,
They all do Lead Crystal, Normal Batteries, AGM and Lithium and Gel Cells,

The third run on the Repair mode had the AGM reading 12.924v after being disconnected for 10 Hours where as before it was reading 12.898v after 10 hours rest and I am giving it one final Go just to make sure all the sulphide has gone, The Load test says it is At 98% Recovered and the CCA has gone through the roof, It's taken 2 day but it seems to be fully serviceable,

The first AGM Battery me and my brother did this to we used a smaller 12A version of Big Red and that seems to be holding it's own So you don't need a massive Charger to beat the battery in to submission, I just used Big Red because that was the Only Normal Charger I had on Hand,

 

[Ded Driver]

.
.

They all do Lead Crystal
.
.
just a quick 'heads-up' RR. If you do get a Lead Crystal battery some time, you need a charger that can deliver 1/3 x capacity or you will void the warranty. It is stated in the Tech Data Sheet that the semi-dry crystaline electrolyte requires this to move back across the plates.

 

[Ridge Runner]

.
.

They all do Lead Crystal
.
.
just a quick 'heads-up' RR. If you do get a Lead Crystal battery some time, you need a charger that can deliver 1/3 x capacity or you will void the warranty. It is stated in the Tech Data Sheet that the semi-dry crystaline electrolyte requires this to move back across the plates.

Thanks DD,

So with these chargers I can't get a battery bigger than 70Ah "Yes" ?? possibly 75Ah ?.

Or fitting that Projecta one you have, I don't know if they sell them over here. I have never seen them advertised anywhere here.

J.

 

[condor22]

There are now several battery options for delivering "bush power". To name but 3 - AGM, Lead Crystal (LC) and Li-ion (Yup I know GEL lead Acid etc, but let's stick to these 3.)

AGM have been around for many years and as a consequence, we (many users) have a variety of AGM setups that will include a mix of all of the recommended chargers.
In caravans etc we will have a 240 VAC charger, probably a solar controller and maybe a DC-DC charger. All of these likely smart chargers with AGM charging profiles. The good thing about them is that they accept a reasonable charge, but will still eventually charge from a lower rate.

LC - Will give more capacity, for longer from the same capacity as an AGM. More expensive than AGM and does require a higher charge rate than AGM. Which could well mean replacing chargers and or adding more solar to charge properly. (As mentioned by DED D)

Lithium - A good quality will cost about 3 times that of an AGM and although an AGM charger will charge them, not properly, (possibly not safely) so again new chargers. But a definite boost to useable power at near a 1/3 the weight.

I guess my opinion on choice is this; I have a 130 AH AGM, 240 VAC charger (with multi profile including Li-ion) Solar controller (AGM) DC-DC charger (AGM) 200 W of solar.
It's all set up, works well, provides what I need and at my age, given my past battery life experience, I doubt I'll need more than 1 more AGM in my lifetime. So can't justify the expense of changing. If I ever need more AH, going to 2 x 80 or 100 AH in parallel will give me that without needing to change or add to the charging system.

If I ever change vans (lottery win or legacy beneficiary dependent (Looking for long lost rich relos, hint)) I would choose Lithium no argument.

Goes back to something I've said before, "If it aint broke don't fix it" lol

The KEY thing with all battery choices - Abuse it, you lose it - Charge properly and manage what you use.

 

[Ded Driver]

.
.

They all do Lead Crystal
.
.
just a quick 'heads-up' RR. If you do get a Lead Crystal battery some time, you need a charger that can deliver 1/3 x capacity or you will void the warranty. It is stated in the Tech Data Sheet that the semi-dry crystaline electrolyte requires this to move back across the plates.

Thanks DD,
So with these chargers I can't get a battery bigger than 70Ah "Yes" ?? possibly 75Ah ?.
Or fitting that Projecta one you have, I don't know if they sell them over here. I have never seen them advertised anywhere here.
J.

found both the IDC25 & the IDC45 on the eBay.com.uk website for around 300 (its around AU$500 here)
In a quick look, about the best buy is the IDC45 for 277 (shipped from AU)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IDC45-Pr...910805&hash=item33ebb3c9f7:g:UhEAAOSwlgNbDfmQ

DED

 

[Ridge Runner]

Your right Condor about swapping Chargers, These big Noco chargers are awesome because they do it all including FLA's and that repair mode is worth the money, Wish I lived closer so you could try one out, with most battery types it will handle up to 500Ah batteries,

With Lead Crystal it uses the same charging profile as AGM's +/- where AGM is 14.7 the LC uses 14.8 which is close enough all the rest of the charging is the same,

Lithium is nice but the cheapest 100Ah Li I have found over here is 699.00 which is about $1260.00 the average price of them here is around $1800.00 and there is no way I am going to fork out that amount, I got the 2 Dometic PLB's and they will run my fridge for days and Once this AGM has been tested running the fridge I might fit it back in the Van as a house battery, The way it is holding power it is almost as high as the new AGM I just bought so I am expecting good things to come from it,

I was toying with the Idea of getting a 230Ah AGM but weighing around 57kgs might be too much to haul around all the time,

 

[condor22]

I know that the AGM profile will do LC. However my point was that to give a minimum 30% of capacity charge, a 100 AH would need 33 amps, a 130 AH would need 39 amps. (Most charger brands step from 20 to 30 to 50, sometimes 40)

My solar controller and DC-DC are only 20 amp chargers and the 240 VAC charger 30 amp max. All fall short of the charge current, so voltage is not relevant.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I know that the AGM profile will do LC. However my point was that to give a minimum 30% of capacity charge, a 100 AH would need 33 amps, a 130 AH would need 39 amps. (Most charger brands step from 20 to 30 to 50, sometimes 40)

My solar controller and DC-DC are only 20 amp chargers and the 240 VAC charger 30 amp max. All fall short of the charge current, so voltage is not relevant.

Yeah I was looking at bigger chargers today, I found a normal one that puts out 100A Max and they quoted an average "Amps" of around 70A but using my 35A charger I have never seen it go above 18-20A when charging 2 X 110Ah batteries even set to Max, It will only pump out 25-35A if the Battery is dead flat which I will never allow to happen,

My Quest is to find one that will put out what I want and not what it thinks I need because Charging 3x 110Ah batteries at 10% is 33Ah so If I want to use 60A then I want the charger to do that,

 

[condor22]

I think one point many miss is that just because a charger states it's 30 amp (example) doesn't mean under normal use it will.

A good smart charger looks at the battery's condition and adjusts the current to a safe and correct charge. I've checked my Redarc BCDC1220 numerous times in boost mode and never seen it go above 14 amps, even though it can deliver 20 amps. The main reason being that I rarely go below 25-30% depth of cycle.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I think one point many miss is that just because a charger states it's 30 amp (example) doesn't mean under normal use it will.

A good smart charger looks at the battery's condition and adjusts the current to a safe and correct charge. I've checked my Redarc BCDC1220 numerous times in boost mode and never seen it go above 14 amps, even though it can deliver 20 amps. The main reason being that I rarely go below 25-30% depth of cycle.

Yeah I think the Battery dictates what Amps the Charger puts out I have seen Big Red go up to around 27A when a 100A was down to about 15/20% But when it's about 60/70% Charged it will only max out at around 17.5A On a 110Ah Battery

Just out of a matter of interest That 80Ah AGM is now reading 12.900v after being taken off the Charger for exactly 24 hours So now I am going to give it the fridge test and after that I will charge it and run another repair mode and see if that brings it up any higher, Before it would never hold 12.3v, It seems to be fixed but the fridge test will tell,

 

[condor22]

That's good, any AGM holding 12.9 after a day off charge means it's holding voltage. The big test is if it has 80 AH left in it, or has reduced. When I stuffed my 4by Aux last year, it went down to <6 V and subsequently lost near 40% of its capacity.

I used my vehicle on Saturday around lunchtime, the Redarc would have delivered charge to the Aux Bat. Yesterday, I removed everything off the roof to re fit it modified.
(Brief Explanation next post)

As such it's now 48 hours since the Aux Bat has had any charge as the panel was switched off, as well as the Engel. I checked the Aux bat voltage this morning at 12.8 V, but it is barely a year old.

 

[condor22]

My roof was fitted with Holden OEM roof cross rails, which have a curve in them across the roof. I fitted a roof rack basket on top of them, using nearly an inch thick of old conveyor belt to pack that curve near the edges. I then fitted the solar panel on top of the basket at the rear and a bracket either side at the front fitted with Maxtrax mounting pins. When the Maxtrax are in place and the panel fitted, there is only 20 cm of basket usable, so its extra weight up there that is not usable.

I've had some Alum Extrusion bent to accommodate the Holden linear roof mount angle, one either side. I'll fit the panel directly to it at the rear and the Maxtrax at the front of these angles.

The benefit will be 2 roof bars and a steel basket less in weight and about 15 cm lower profile. Hopefully less wind noise as well.

 

[Ridge Runner]

That's good, any AGM holding 12.9 after a day off charge means it's holding voltage. The big test is if it has 80 AH left in it, or has reduced. When I stuffed my 4by Aux last year, it went down to <6 V and subsequently lost near 40% of its capacity.

I used my vehicle on Saturday around lunchtime, the Redarc would have delivered charge to the Aux Bat. Yesterday, I removed everything off the roof to re fit it modified.
(Brief Explanation next post)

As such it's now 48 hours since the Aux Bat has had any charge as the panel was switched off, as well as the Engel. I checked the Aux bat voltage this morning at 12.8 V, but it is barely a year old.

With just your fridge hooked up to a good AGM how does the battery behave during run cycles IE how low does the voltage drop when it's running and how much does the voltage recover during the Off cycle, ?

I will recharge this AGM and let it sit for 24 and 48 hours, hopefully it will match yours, My New AGM sat for 5 days+ and still did not drop below 12.91+,

Looking at this temperature Chart it shows slightly higher voltages in warmer climates but these figures don't match what my FLA's are doing where I am seeing a 0.6 to 0.8v increase in voltage which does not make sense, My FLA's are reading 13.3 to 13.4v after 24 hours after being disconnected from the charger and My AGM is doing the same,