4500 V's 6000

[user 4485]

I wouldn't say any significant technology advances but there are unique differences.
Key technologies: https://www.minelab.com/anzea/knowledge-base/key-technologies
They are all pulse induction (PI) but the GPX4500/5000 run on MPS (Multi Period Sensing) while the SDC runs MPF (Multi Period Fast) which is why it performs better on short time constant targets (very small gold).
The GPX6000 has Geosense technology. Other than a very basic overview of Geosense there is very little understanding of it. I've been hoping Minelab would release a knowledge base article describing it in more detail like they did with the SDC's MPF.
My uneducated take is that Geosense incorporates a broader spectrum multi period tech i.e. MPS & MPF merged that is likely even broader ranging in the low end of MPF. That's just speculation though & I'd love to get a more in-depth explanation on Geosense overall.
My experience is this:
- SDC will definitely pick up very small gold more consistently than a GPX4500/5000 although the GPX's can & do get the same little specs.
SDC is way more suited to those searching old workings who want a simple switch on & go machine without the hassle of worrying about timings, settings, coils etc.

- GPX4500/5000 remains the most versatile option. Gets very small gold thru to larger, deeper gold with a multitude of setting/timing options & coils to suit area or mode of search i.e. shallow, all terrain or deep. Can be a bit overwhelming for some new users & I've even seen "experienced" operators potter along without ever changing anything but rx gain.

- GPX6000. This will no doubt attract criticism. In my experience if you own a GPX6000 the SDC is redundant, not required. Not only will the 6000 consistently pick up the same small gold it will pick it up much deeper. It is also a lot better than previous GPX models in this regard however previous GPX's still hold the advantage with overall versatility mainly at the big end of town due to available coil selection (in particular large coils) - DD, bundle wound monos, spiral wound monos, concentric coils in a wide variety of shapes & sizes. I have read comment from those in the know that the GPX6000 will match older models for depth & from my experience I tend to agree with that + on smalls believe it goes deeper. But until a full range of larger size/type coils is available for the 6000 then the bigger/deeper argument is largely mute.
Like the SDC the 6000 is configured more for ease of operation although I've seen a lot of complaints about it that I believe are due to operator error, things like sensitivity flat out/too high for conditions, volume flat out, reluctance to use DD coil & so on.
Not withstanding that it has had a lot of issues that are less than adequate for a high cost detector.

I haven't seen any really good side by side comparisons that I'd point anyone towards & to be honest don't know that one could be done that pleases us all. There's always something that can be "nit picked" in these types of vids.
My opinion is there is a performance overlap between all of the above mentioned Minelab detectors, pros/cons on all, personal preferences etc. etc. Any one would do me & I'd happily find some gold with any of them.

I think Wal summed it up here perfectly:

Which ever machine one uses it's the experience gained in fully understanding that machine that gives one the edge over the next machine. Be it a 5k, 6k, or 7k.....in the right hands they are all deadly and in the wrong hands they are not going to give you consistent results. Operator skills generally make the biggest difference.

 

[clodmac]

Pretty good summation Mbasko and Wal , in our area of the GT the 6000 and the SDC reign supreme for finding shotgun pellets that weigh point 16 about size 6 . There is no doubt you can find tiny bits of gold amongst the with the SDC and Tiny bits of gold a lot deeper than the SDC using the 6000 , which pretty much confirms Mbaskos' opinion the SDC is pretty much redundant EXCEPT on some very rare specimens . To qualify that , there is a crazy "mechanic" I know who has a specimen about the size of broad been that contains 1 point 5 grams of gold that can only be heard with an SDC or one of his modified f1a4s . You can't hear it with a 5,6 or 7 . There is a performance overlap as Mbasko says of all the machines mentioned , it is my experience in side by side comparison with the 6000 and the machines I use is that the 6000 has no discernable advantage over mine in our AREA . Just for interest sake everyone get a size 6 or 7 shotgun pellet and test it on your own machine in any settings you like and see what happens , those of you with a 5,6,or 7 might have to borrow one of a sdc or 6000 owner .

 

[PhaseTech]

Testing does crazy things to your brain, as you witness all kinds of weird results. On my test bed the 4500 with 12" Evo hits all 5 targets, and pretty easy too. SDC only gets the first 2, the others are too deep. GPZ in General/Difficult hits all the targets as well. 6000 gets the first 4, but struggles with the deepest one, but can hit it with the 14" DD in the Normal ground setting. BUT, these are all lead targets of varying size and shape. If I grab a selection of gold nuggets that I've found with the 6000 and test the same machines, the 4500 does very poorly, 2300 does fine just not as deep as the 6000. GPZ will hit most of them, but on the very small ones can struggle, but on the larger ones can beat the 6000. This is why we can keep working the same spot over and over again, with different machines, coils, timings etc etc and certain combos will pull more gold off it.

To compare the 6000 in simple terms, I reckon it's like a mash up of the 4500 and SDC.

The one area the 6000 doesn't beat the SDC in is handling of wet red clay soils. Yes you can put the 14" DD on the 6000, but then you are comparing a 14" coil to an 8" coil, and if the ground is quite scrubby as well, the SDC is the clear better option in that scenario. Now that smaller coil options are becoming available for the 6000, tests against the SDC2300 will be very interesting.

 

[PhaseTech]

I still love my 4500 and on solid sluggy gold (even down to very small sizes), it can hold its head high and run with the newer machines no problem. But when it comes to fine specimens, quartz speckled with gold bits, or ironstone encrusted pieces where after an acid bath the gold is spongy and prickly, the SDC, GPZ and 6000 are far superior. If Minelab could add the magic 6000 timing as an option in the 4500 or 5000 (or even a 3500 for that matter), I could go back to having just 1 x PI machine. But that's just fantasy land talk So looks like I'm keeping them all for now.

 

[clodmac]

I still love my 4500 and on solid sluggy gold (even down to very small sizes), it can hold its head high and run with the newer machines no problem. But when it comes to fine specimens, quartz speckled with gold bits, or ironstone encrusted pieces where after an acid bath the gold is spongy and prickly, the SDC, GPZ and 6000 are far superior. If Minelab could add the magic 6000 timing as an option in the 4500 or 5000 (or even a 3500 for that matter), I could go back to having just 1 x PI machine. But that's just fantasy land talk So looks like I'm keeping them all for now.

Hi Phasetech , with the species, spongy and prickly bits that the 45 struggles on ,could this be due to higher frequency timings in the SDC , GPZ and 6000 , I assume MPF in the SDC is a lot higher frequency which gives the SDC the advantage on the tiny stuff and specimens or am I on the wrong track

 

[user 4485]

Hi Phasetech , with the species, spongy and prickly bits that the 45 struggles on ,could this be due to higher frequency timings in the SDC , GPZ and 6000 , I assume MPF in the SDC is a lot higher frequency which gives the SDC the advantage on the tiny stuff and specimens or am I on the wrong track

MPF: https://www.minelab.com/__files/f/254709/KBA 23-1 The SDC 2300 and MPF Technology Explained.pdf

Pulse Induction detectors don't rely on frequency alone for sensitivity like a VLF does.
With pulse induction the sensitivity comes from the timings (tx on/off, rx), pulse delay, waveforms.
Your detector mechanic Mick could explain it a lot better than me.

VLF operates in frequency domain (x) Khz
Pulse Induction operates in the time domain (pulses/sec)

Thread with Auman's input here:
https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/threads/gpx-series-operating-frequency.30703/#post-489878

 

[PhaseTech]

If you want to delve deeper, plenty of reading here: https://www.minelab.com/anzea/support/knowledge-base

 

[clodmac]

Hi Mbasko I get most of that in the knowledge base info and the mechanics answer to the frequency thread . A better way to phrase the question may be . Are the timings (tx on/off , rx ) pulse delay , waveforms of pulse induction faster in the sdc and 6000 to give them the advantage over the 45 on the tiny stuff and specimens , which leads to another question . If they are faster is that the reason the 6000 struggles on target no 5 in the test patch .

 

[user 4485]

Hi Mbasko I get most of that in the knowledge base info and the mechanics answer to the frequency thread . A better way to phrase the question may be . Are the timings (tx on/off , rx ) pulse delay , waveforms of pulse induction faster in the sdc and 6000 to give them the advantage over the 45 on the tiny stuff and specimens , which leads to another question . If they are faster is that the reason the 6000 struggles on target no 5 in the test patch .

The MPF knowledge base article answers your questions on the SDC.
With the 6000 we are only guessing due to the lack of detailed info from Minelab but my opinion is yes it is faster but also broader spectrum than the SDC.

 

[AuMan]

Hi Mbasko I get most of that in the knowledge base info and the mechanics answer to the frequency thread . A better way to phrase the question may be . Are the timings (tx on/off , rx ) pulse delay , waveforms of pulse induction faster in the sdc and 6000 to give them the advantage over the 45 on the tiny stuff and specimens , which leads to another question . If they are faster is that the reason the 6000 struggles on target no 5 in the test patch .

Without measuring anything, I would have to say yes. Early sampling is one key factor to getting the really small and prickly gold. Where that sampling should be measured from I believe is from the falling edge of the flyback pulse as that is the point where targets stop being stimulated and begin to give off eddy currents.
So the time from the falling edge of the flyback pulse to the first sample in the sdc and in at least one channel in the 6000 would be much faster than on say a standard 5000 running fine gold.

As for if that is why the 6 struggles on target no 5, it depends. From the pictures I have seen of the 6000 circuit, they have added an extra channel, it could be part of their geosense, or it could be an additional channel dedicated for small, fine prickly gold and all those tiny shotgun pellets you didn't even know existed.

And also I have to correct you on the specimen I have here containing 1.5g of near invisible gold, it could be my fault for your misunderstanding because for years, no gpx has been able to detect that speci, and then Minelab brought out the 6000 which indeed does pick up this speci at about the same distance as the f1a4 level 4, roughly 3" and still be able to detect the surrounding ground. When set up like that however, the F1 wont detect the full range of nuggets at depth that the 6000 will. It is a case of using that detector when set up that way in shallow noisy ground and reef lines, which some people are having great success with and then using a GPX where the ground and gold is deeper.

Cheers Mick

 

[user 12139]

^ fast coils!

 

[clodmac]

Without measuring anything, I would have to say yes. Early sampling is one key factor to getting the really small and prickly gold. Where that sampling should be measured from I believe is from the falling edge of the flyback pulse as that is the point where targets stop being stimulated and begin to give off eddy currents.
So the time from the falling edge of the flyback pulse to the first sample in the sdc and in at least one channel in the 6000 would be much faster than on say a standard 5000 running fine gold.

As for if that is why the 6 struggles on target no 5, it depends. From the pictures I have seen of the 6000 circuit, they have added an extra channel, it could be part of their geosense, or it could be an additional channel dedicated for small, fine prickly gold and all those tiny shotgun pellets you didn't even know existed.

And also I have to correct you on the specimen I have here containing 1.5g of near invisible gold, it could be my fault for your misunderstanding because for years, no gpx has been able to detect that speci, and then Minelab brought out the 6000 which indeed does pick up this speci at about the same distance as the f1a4 level 4, roughly 3" and still be able to detect the surrounding ground. When set up like that however, the F1 wont detect the full range of nuggets at depth that the 6000 will. It is a case of using that detector when set up that way in shallow noisy ground and reef lines, which some people are having great success with and then using a GPX where the ground and gold is deeper.

Cheers Mick

Thanks for clearing that up a bit Mick , I over looked the falling edge of the flyback pulse bit lol , I also stand corrected about the 6000 and the speci , all the 6000 owners can breath a sigh of relief , I will send you a pic of the . 05 I got today out of the wet red clay at Snake Hill with the sadie . Target no 5 still has me a bit intrigued in Phasetechs post above . It seems most of the questions related to Big L s post 45 vs 6 have been brought up , being an inquisitive type , did you try the speci with the dd when you had the 6 there . Cheers Clodmac

 

[PhaseTech]

It all just comes back to when you optimise for small fast time constant targets, you lose depth on bigger stuff.

VLF high Freq vs low freq...
Single channel PI, slow vs fast pulse delay/width....

Trying to get tiny targets and big deep targets at the same time, while still getting rid of ground noise has been the holy grail of gold detectors ever since the SD2000 first came out. 2100 improved small gold performance. GP series were better again. GPX gave some more fine tuning options, plus added bonus of being able to run Mono coils in bad ground.

Enhance on the 4500 was more sensitive than Sens Smooth, and Fine Gold slightly better again, but there were limitations in where you can run it, and encountering problematic ground was a little more common - which is why Enhance was still left on the 5000 as an option. [BTW, a 17x13" or 15" Evo or 15" Detech Super Deep running in Fine Gold is extremely good at getting small and deep gold at the same time.]

SDC was then super sensitive, but optimised for 8" mono coil, so performance on bigger deeper gold suffered.
GPZ was the first real new breakthrough, being able to punch deep, but have SDC type sensitivity for reef gold. This is just dynamite for patch hunting, and also your first careful pass over a small patch nets you 95% of what's there.

So the 6000 I see as the perfect machine between the SDC and GPZ, and performance is like a mash up of the two. Deeper than SDC, and more sensitive than the GPZ.

 

[clodmac]

Phasetech the 2200d had a channel selection switch you could run in 1or 2 or both , is the 6000 working on 2 or more channels of differing search patterns/pulse patterns simultaneously to give you the sensitivity on very small bits and more depth on larger bits . Or am I trying to over simplify things . We have pretty much established that the 6000 can find smaller bits at more depth than a standard 45 or 5000 , The jury is still out on whether the 6000 can match the standard 45 or 5000 for depth on larger bits , the new bigger coils may change the verdict when they are available I am pretty sure Mr Nuggetfinder and Mr Coiltek will provide better coils , they make sure of that or they wouldn't be still in business . You can probably buy a secondhand 4500 or 5000 with small , medium and bigger evo for around 4 grand . or you can buy a 6000 and a bigger coil for 8 grand + , I'm with Wal , depends how deep your pockets are , how much time you are going to spend learning the game , getting to know where and how to drive the machine etc . How many people buy a 45/5000 and "upgrade" to a 6 or 7 because they can't find gold , there are also a lot of people who go straight to the top and buy a 6 or 7 and still cant'/don't find any .
I don't claim to be an expert having only found around 300 bits for about 120 grams in the last couple of years ranging from .06 grams to 16 grams using my 5000 ( upgraded by the "mechanic" 12 months ago ) but I am pretty sure I wouldn't of found that much more using a 6 or 7 .

 

[user 22230]

Phasetech the 2200d had a channel selection switch you could run in 1or 2 or both , is the 6000 working on 2 or more channels of differing search patterns/pulse patterns simultaneously to give you the sensitivity on very small bits and more depth on larger bits . Or am I trying to over simplify things . We have pretty much established that the 6000 can find smaller bits at more depth than a standard 45 or 5000 , The jury is still out on whether the 6000 can match the standard 45 or 5000 for depth on larger bits , the new bigger coils may change the verdict when they are available I am pretty sure Mr Nuggetfinder and Mr Coiltek will provide better coils , they make sure of that or they wouldn't be still in business . You can probably buy a secondhand 4500 or 5000 with small , medium and bigger evo for around 4 grand . or you can buy a 6000 and a bigger coil for 8 grand + , I'm with Wal , depends how deep your pockets are , how much time you are going to spend learning the game , getting to know where and how to drive the machine etc . How many people buy a 45/5000 and "upgrade" to a 6 or 7 because they can't find gold , there are also a lot of people who go straight to the top and buy a 6 or 7 and still cant'/don't find any .
I don't claim to be an expert having only found around 300 bits for about 120 grams in the last couple of years ranging from .06 grams to 16 grams using my 5000 ( upgraded by the "mechanic" 12 months ago ) but I am pretty sure I wouldn't of found that much more using a 6 or 7 .

wouldn't of found that much more using a 6 or 7 Your statement may be correct but I'm damn sure you would have found more if you were using a 5000 and ALSO as 6 or a 7 Regardless of model they are all just tools in the tool box, the more tools I can afford to have in that toolbox the better equipped I am to do the task at hand. What one may scream at the other may not even see, my three thousand dollar detector will scream over a nugget that my ten thousand dollar detector won't even see? You can talk yourself out of buying a different detector than what you have using a multitude of reasons but you can't change the fact that your odds of cleaning a patch also decrease in doing so. Simply put different detectors excel under different scenarios, so I guess the question is do you have the time available to justify the cost of purchasing ?
Quite a few I know are buying a six and simply going over all their old patches and picking up ounces, so it sort of speaks for itself

 

[Bacchus]

Pretty good summation Mbasko and Wal , in our area of the GT the 6000 and the SDC reign supreme for finding shotgun pellets that weigh point 16 about size 6 . There is no doubt you can find tiny bits of gold amongst the with the SDC and Tiny bits of gold a lot deeper than the SDC using the 6000 , which pretty much confirms Mbaskos' opinion the SDC is pretty much redundant EXCEPT on some very rare specimens . To qualify that , there is a crazy "mechanic" I know who has a specimen about the size of broad been that contains 1 point 5 grams of gold that can only be heard with an SDC or one of his modified f1a4s . You can't hear it with a 5,6 or 7 . There is a performance overlap as Mbasko says of all the machines mentioned , it is my experience in side by side comparison with the 6000 and the machines I use is that the 6000 has no discernable advantage over mine in our AREA . Just for interest sake everyone get a size 6 or 7 shotgun pellet and test it on your own machine in any settings you like and see what happens , those of you with a 5,6,or 7 might have to borrow one of a sdc or 6000 owner .

That sparked my interest, fwiw my avatar was found at about 3 inches SDC @Tarnagulla on a low-hi weird signal and my 4500 could not see.
Think it goes to show all machines still have gold to find depending on the make up of the nugget ,machine set up, weather conditions and probably how you you hold your tongue.

A 6000 with something small to push under bushes and also something big when available to take West will be on my shopping list hopefully .
Looks proven enough for me , the weight is an attraction, ease of use and being compact a bonus for travelling.

 

[Hawkear]

Have also seen a significant piece of wiry specimen gold that produced a very weak signal on a 4500 although actually found with one. The finder said it was extremely shallow.
My own experience of non signals was with a bit of radiator coil. The types that there used to be in bar radiators. Going over some broken bits of the radiator wire coil easily seen sitting on the surface, I could not get a signal. Must have been something to do with the way the wire was wound into a coil.
Perhaps the same effect with the behavior of wiry gold or when gold is interconnected within a specimen that the reaction field can cancelled out or be vectored away from the metal detectors coil.

 

[clodmac]

Hi Diginit , I will slightly correct my claim that I am pretty sure I would not have found that much more gold with a 6 or a 7 than what I have found with my 5000 .
I am certain that I would not of found that much more gold with a 6 or 7 .
As an example I/ we have a place close to Ararat called Snake Hill it is in the regional park , I'm pretty sure I am not giving any secrets away about that , It's in all the secret books and marked clearly on all the secret Doug Stone maps .
It's 5 minutes from home and I go there to test/try things out , the reason being it has been flogged by a lot of people for a lot of years with all types of machines dating back probably 40 years . EMI is an issue being not far from the highway and not a long way from One Tree Hill which has some communications towers which probably contribute as well .
As testament to the flogging it has had there is a patch there you will struggle to find a shotgun pellet of any size , the specific patch I am referring to is a surfaced area 10 metres by 20 metres taken down to the clay . It is obvious to every detectorist that goes there . hence the lack of targets .
In March this year I went there 4 times with my 5000 ( modified by the mechanic ) to test the machine fitted with a 12 in round evo and a new 12x8 evo . The 8 bits of gold in my avatar weigh half a gram exactly and were found on this patch with that machine and coils .
Over those 4 trips I would of worked that area for perhaps 8 hours and found 30 bits of gold and 15 or 16 very small shotgun pellets . The gold weighed 4point 8 grams the biggest being point 7 at depth in a small remnant area of quartz gravel/wash , I also found another 4 or 5 grams a couple of hundred metres away over a larger area that you wouldn't class as a patch .
10 of the shotgun pellets weighed 1 point 6 between them the other 5 or 6 were slightly bigger .
I went back again for a further couple of hours and found 1 or 2 shotgun pellets over the whole patch and was certain I had not missed much that the machine was capable of finding in my hands .
A mate of mine has a 6000 and as mates do I showed him exactly where i had found the gold , he spent a fair few hours there one day and found 8 or 10 bits for about a gram a bit further down the hill from where I got most of the bits I found . Some were in the same area I was concentrating on , no argument there , did he find much more , no

Last week I went back to that same patch with another one of the "mechanics" modified machines known as the f1a4 L4 it's best described as a quiet running machine capable of finding SDC size gold with the same ground handling abilities but better handling of EMI and works well with NF coils . The purpose of the trip was to test a sadie coil and some headphones and see if there was still any gold left in the now wet red clay . It was the first trip to the patch with the F1 , did i find gold , the answer is yes , 4 bits from point 05 to point 22 for a total of point 55 .
The next question I ask myself is , Would I have found all the bits that I got with my 5000 , and my mate got with the 6000 out of the defined patch with the F1 . The honest answer would be probably not , the .7 gram bit at depth that no one else had ever heard may of been been out of reach as well as a couple of deeper point 2s and 3s. that no one else had ever heard .

I can find little bits between .05 g and point 2 or 3 g in wet red clay from the surface to 6 - 8 inchs down with my machines in that flogged location , that have never been dug up by anyone else with any other machine . From the little I know about the game I doubt the gold goes much deeper in the clay in that location .

Do I need a machine worth 4 x the value of my work ute to find small gold , no

Fair chance this chapter about small gold in my area may start an argument , the next chapter will be about another specific patch on private property where we have been using the 5 , 6 and 7 . that has had a bit less of a hammering but has still seen plenty of detectors over the last 30 years that I know of .

Cheers Clod

 

[user 22230]

Clod if your happy with your gear and the results then all's good lad I'll follow you anytime
ps A lot of the times I go over an old patch I'm not sure even if a different detector is the key to more or simply mother nature has removed that one or two cm of material since that previously had just put those lovely little shiny bits just out of reach ?

 

[clodmac]

That sparked my interest, fwiw my avatar was found at about 3 inches SDC @Tarnagulla on a low-hi weird signal and my 4500 could not see.
Think it goes to show all machines still have gold to find depending on the make up of the nugget ,machine set up, weather conditions and probably how you you hold your tongue.

A 6000 with something small to push under bushes and also something big when available to take West will be on my shopping list hopefully .
Looks proven enough for me , the weight is an attraction, ease of use and being compact a bonus for travelling.

Rick fantastic reasons to buy a 6000 if you can fit it into the shopping budget . ideal places to use one over West virtually free of our local dreaded shot gun pellets , 5 of us found about 25 between us in 3 weeks out in the desert there last year .
Still got to hold your tongue right to get any gold though , that doesn't change where ever you go .
308 slugs fired by a crazy fish at ferals probably outweigh the shotgun pellets where we were .
Cheers Clod