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Water and sand can wear glass down pretty fast, whenever you find old glass in the water its always smoothed on any old sharp edges. Sapphires have been there for millions of years. There is a lot of Zircon sand, fine Spinel in some of these stream systems which may help water wear gemstones?

It's hard to say really, just my thoughts. I know there are theories that state totally the opposite and say they are lava worn or formed as such.
 
I have many water worn sapphires and many more in Crystal formation. Most of my water worn ones have come from the New England area, just talk with anyone who does a lot of sapphire hunting in rivers and they will tell you its a common occurrence.

Cheers
 
You can chip both Sapphires and Diamonds, hit a sapphire with a softer hammer and see what happens :D Think of the sapphire tumbling around in a river for millions of years slowly being chipped away, this is what is actually happening. There's many cases where softer materials wear away harder ones e.g. rubber against steel(Machinery bushes in dust free zones etc.), just the rate of wear is greater on the softer material.
 
Still hard to cop that a big piece is water worn with no chips, unless this piece was 300 carat then it was born and this is the "little" spec thats left that has rounded evenly after all that time. Maybe its a Jurassic Sapphire...just made that up......a water worn little saph...just bigger! lol
 
1420614213_20150107_171058.jpg
 
Heatho said:
Definitely a cracker of a stone. Looks slightly dichroic to me in those 2 pics, bit of Bluey Green in the centre of the top pic. Niiice.

Stop using such big words Heatho! :lol:

pleochroism is only observed in doubly refractive (anisotropic or uniaxial minerals) colored gemstones, although some doubly refractive specimens may not show pleochroism. Dichroism is only observed in uniaxial minerals, while trichroism is only observed in biaxial minerals.


Work that one out got me stumped!

Gems That Exhibit Dichroism

Amethyst (weak)
Apatite (blue: strong, green: weak)
Citrine (very weak)
Emerald (strong)
Morganite (weak to distinct)
Tourmaline (strong)
Zircon (strong)

source: http://www.allaboutgemstones.com/gemstone_pleochroism.html
 
still find it hard to believe. a stone that dense wouldve barely moved depending on location, if found in a current water course means it has more than likely only been in a river anywhere up to a thousand years or so, rivers dry up, change course and create entire new courses constantly. so the theory that a stone has travelled for hundreds of thousands of years in a water course is near impossible. A most australian rivers arent long enough to continually travel, it wouldve been in the ocean by now. B they will only move sapphires when in flood and only for a short time until its deposited because of the density so there is absolutely minimal grinding etc.

of course noone knows because theres no evidence. But in a river thats in flood yes there is increased water flow however there is also increased downward pressure from the mass of water above the stone. it takes only a very small drop in pressure or larger rock to break the flow and it stops moving for another 50-100 years and gets buried till the next large flood.

if someone can tumble a sapphire using sand only and for less than a few weeks in the tumbler ill believe in water worn sapphs.
 
I do believe in say a "bubble " of liquid gem "goo" that crystalises and then "pops" out of some sort of rock like an egg with a yolk. I dont beleive in that rock travelling too far from the source.
 
Regardless of its external appearance, I hope Bunyip succeeds in getting it identified as it is definitely a keeper. I have found small rubies not far from where he found this, so the area does have corundum. The area also has good Topaz so either way, it will be a good gem.
 
They get there tumbling , same as billy boulders , in the vent/ pipe they got pushed / worn out of. Not my theory but agree with it. There was a thread on here about it . Don't have time or know how to post the link. Good score , if rough2 cut says he is happy to cut it , I'd take him up on the offer . Dosnt do that often , especially a sapph!
 
I read a theory like heatho mentioned ,they are not water worn ,but they end up like this due to there formation and conditions ,after reading this article it got me thinking ..

If only they could talk a.......

That green stone with the light looks like a colour that is common around central Queensland ,I have a collection from around Mudgee ,but none of that colour ..

Thanks for the pics ,nice gem mate
 
Here is central QLD commercial sapphire miner Jim Elliot's theory after some decades of field experience. I have posted the article in it's entire form as it is not over-long.

THE FORMATION OF QUEENSLAND SAPPHIRE RESOURCES - AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY!


BACK TO GEOPHYSICS INDEX

Taken from an address by Jim Elliot at the Central Queensland Gemfest 2003

The conventional theory has it that the formation of the Central Queensland and the Lava Plains sapphire resources is the result of major extrusions or emissions from large volcanic sources and that the sapphire was subsequently transported by large river systems and deposited in the areas where it is currently mined today.

As a result of observations during some 20 years of mining on the Central Queensland Gemfields and 5 years on the Lava Plains field, I believe this theory to be totally incorrect.

I believe that the sapphire was produced from a large number of smaller vents which are located throughout the sapphire producing areas, and that the sapphire never moves, any significant distance from its point of origin at the surface.

I believe that the term ''water worn sapphire" and, to a large extent, "water worn billy boulders and rocks" are similarly incorrect and that any wearing or rounding took place in the process of formation, and not as a result of alluvial transportation.

I provide the following information in support of my theory and as reasons why I found it necessary to look for a different method of formation than the one which has been generally accepted in the past.

a. We have found tremendous variation in the quality and nature of not only the sapphire within very short distances, but also of the associated ironstone and silcrete (billy boulders).

b. When trying to follow the "sapphire river system" in any area, we found that :: were constantly coming out of one type of mining terrain and going into other where the inherent characteristics of the material changed.

c. We found as many as three overlying wash layers with totally different types of sapphire and ironstone, and the directions of deposition varied widely and could not be related to surrounding areas.

d. We started to mine at Lava Plains, our preconceived ideas failed us and we had difficulties in locating and understanding the sapphire deposition and formation patterns

We tried some mining techniques which would have had conventional miners questioning our sanity - but they worked, and we found sapphire! We left the alluvial systems and started mining the huge deposits of volcanic ash which blanket the area - and we found excellent sapphire.

We stripped off layers of lava flow rock to expose further layers of volcanic ash below - and again we found more sapphire.

We then moved away from the small source vents which produced the material and the quantity and quality of sapphire decreased quite quickly as we moved away - despite the presence of significant alluvial beds, so the river transportation theory was losing its appeal to us.

We then moved back to the alluvial beds in the area closer to the vent sources, and found bulk Sapphire - but again the quality varied quite quickly when we moved from one vent area to another even though they were only a few hundred metres apart.

e. We came back to the C.Q. Gemfields and looked at our mining in a new light, looking for evidence of small localised deposits - and the evidence was everywhere.

f. We looked at the current major river systems like Retreat Creek, which flows past the major volcanic peaks which we had always been told were the source of all our sapphire.

However, when one analysed the sapphire from the various mining areas down the course of Retreat Creek, the material had distinct changes at least 6 times in the length of flow through the Gemfields area.

Having thought about all these variables, and with my trusty divining rods in hand, I went back over many of the mining areas which-had been "worked out" as a result of the mining over the 125 years of the field's history.

I identified many, many small source vents, and it became apparent that many of these vents must have had several stages of production and that, as a result, there would be several layers of wash from the one source in many cases.

This enabled me to direct some hardworking hand miners into areas which older hands said were totally mined out - but the current hand miners have gone further down and found good, bearing wash as a reward for their efforts.

I provide some thoughts on currently held ideas for consideration by learned and qualified geologists and gemologists..

1. "Water Worn Sapphires"

Every rockhound knows that if you put a sapphire crystal in a tumbling machine with grinding compound and let it run for even I0 weeks the sapphire will probably still have it's corners still visible. If you do the sum for a 500mm diameter tumbler doing 40 revs per minute, for 60 mins/hour, 24 hrs/day, 7days/week, for 10 weeks - you will find that your sapphire has traveled some 6,000 kilometres in a dry abrasive environment - but is still not reduced to a round pebble.

How is it formed then? I believe that the pebble is formed by the rounding of the sapphire crystal in the vary high temperature and the very aggressive environment in the 'formation tube' during the passage from the formation zone some 65 kilometres below the surface.

It will be noticed that many of these rounded sapphire pebbles have a surface which is severely pitted with small pinhole craters - whereas, if they were stream worn they would have smooth surfaces.

This pitting is the result of the explosion of small dots of rutile just below the surface of the sapphire crystal. It the temperature is below the melting point of sapphire, but above the volatilisation point of rutile, the escape of the volatilised rutile will pit the softened surface, but rutile further below the surface will be captured by the skin tension and will be absolved or reconverted within the sapphire.

2. "Water Worn" Billy Boulders.

I do not believe that the smooth surface of billy boulders is due to any form of stream polishing, but is again the result of rounding and glazing in the aggressive 'formation tube' environment.

Every miner has seen billy boulders with holes right through them and with deep crevices and holes - and they are always polished, even in these hard to get at locations - so this cannot be from stream wear.

3. Shape of Sapphire Crystals.

Conventional wisdom has it that sapphire forms in the shape of double-terminated "dogs teeth", or at very least a single dogs tooth form.

Having studied tens of thousands of pieces of sapphire from out mining operations, Jenny can assure you that very little of the sapphire found is actually broken, and that most of the pieces actually are the entire crystal as it was formed.

This "as formed" crystal shape can be chunky, but irregular, or flat like a sapphire platelet - but they all are fully developed crystals without being broken off a larger piece. Many miners, when finding a large piece which is apparently the broken-off centre section of a dogs tooth have been known to exclaim that they wish that they could find the rest of the crystal - when , in reality, they do have the entire crystal.

While many people believe will undoubtedly say "who cares?", we believe that the proper recognition of the formation and type of sapphire is relevant and important for the survival and development of our industry.

If new miners look at many of the old "mined out" 6reas in an un-prejudiced light, I believe that they will find that there are still very large reserves of sapphire to be tapped - not only on the existent sapphire mining areas, but throughout the rest of Australia.

These as-yet undiscovered new areas of commercial significance may not be of the same scale as New England, Central Queensland or Lava Plains - but they will each have their own characteristics and could well play a major part in both the recognition and the marketing of Australian sapphire.

Australian sapphire has suffered in the past because of the domination of the world markets, principally by the Thai dealers and factories. As a direct result of their deceitful practices in taking the major portion of our rough back to Thailand for heat treatment and cutting, and later reselling the best of our sapphire as being "Thai" or "'Ceylon" sapphire, the world has not been allowed to recognise the true high quality and amazing colour range of Australian material.

This Thai domination is rapidly coming to an end, and the rapid collapse of their control is largely due to their own continuation of deceitful practices. The selling of huge amount of chemically modified beryllium treated sapphire to unsuspecting regular clients without telling them what the material really was, has destroyed a lot of confidence in the Thai cutting industry.

Australia now has a great opportunity to be recognised finally as a major world player in the sapphire industry - as a supplier of high quality, genuine, natural, unadulterated material.

Not everyone will agree with this of course but Jim's observations pretty much square with my own experience on the CQ field. The fact that the field is dotted with large numbers of small volcanic vents and that different coloured stones predominate in different areas of the field and the prevailing colour can change in a very short distance suggests to me that Jim may be correct.

Water cannot possibly wash stones into groupings according to their colour and I have always thought that the billy boulders actually look to have been heat-glazed rather than water worn.

But we just don't really know.
 
Very nice looking stone there bunyip - I hope it does turn out to be a sapphire. Hard to tell from just a photo but I think I see the potential for a cracker of a faceted stone there :)
 
My stuff from Mount Gibson last week. Some smokies with nice, clean facetable crystal in them.

16220036372_b4a57c4fed_c.jpg


The larger bits of topaz - nothing big but I think most of these will probably cut.

16033639310_d5f5a78d61_c.jpg


The overall lot of smoky and topaz potential cutters plus a heap of small topaz bits and some as yet unidentified odds and sods (a few bits of tin I think)

16033626770_d87d01ea67_c.jpg
 
Twapster said:
Heatho said:
Definitely a cracker of a stone. Looks slightly dichroic to me in those 2 pics, bit of Bluey Green in the centre of the top pic. Niiice.

Stop using such big words Heatho! :lol:

pleochroism is only observed in doubly refractive (anisotropic or uniaxial minerals) colored gemstones, although some doubly refractive specimens may not show pleochroism. Dichroism is only observed in uniaxial minerals, while trichroism is only observed in biaxial minerals.


Work that one out got me stumped!

Gems That Exhibit Dichroism

Amethyst (weak)
Apatite (blue: strong, green: weak)
Citrine (very weak)
Emerald (strong)
Morganite (weak to distinct)
Tourmaline (strong)
Zircon (strong)

source: http://www.allaboutgemstones.com/gemstone_pleochroism.html

I like big words. :)

None (no variation in color) Isotropic minerals are always dark under crossed polarizers. Anisotropic minerals are not. If no color variation is observed on rotation under plane-polarized light then the mineral is non-pleochroic.

Dichroic (two colors observed) Dichroic minerals are generally always hexagonal, trigonal, or tetragonal.

Pleochroic (three color observed) Pleochroic minerals are generally always orthorhombic, monoclinic, or triclinic.
 
I just re-read that info Lefty and it does make sense, I have read it before but not for quite a while. The pitted look on some rounded stones makes sense that Rutile would be popping on/under the surface in extreme heat. The billy boulders also makes sense and the colour groupings in different spots also, where we go the mine pulls different colours and grades from different places on the property.

Nice stones too mate, well done.
 

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