Foreign ownership of our resources and businesses.

[Mackka]

I was going on this - "The plant uses reverse osmosis filtration membranes to remove salt from seawater and is powered using renewable energy, supplied to the national power grid from the Infigen Energy –owned Capital Wind Farm located at Bungendore."

and

Part of the Sydney Desalination Plan's cost was the construction of a wind farm to offset the energy usage of the plant with 100% renewable energy. The 67–turbine Capital Wind Farm at Bungendore was built for this purpose and produces approximately 340 gigawatt-hours (1,200 TJ) per year. The generating/nameplate capacity is 140 megawatts (190,000 hp).[34]


I have plenty of issues with resources and foreign investment - just feel the focus should be on the real stuffups and things that we can change, The issue of our exporting gas and driving the price of domestic gas sky-high as a result is a sore polint with me. That needs correcting.

The way I see it is, we don't actually own the gas or coal. The government gets royalties, but the owners can sell the product to whomever they want and in the case of gas, it is European clients due to the war in Ukraine. I stand to be corrected. Mackka

 

[Manpa]

Sign of the times, very few people with the wealth to own major businesses on their own in Oz or globally without the funds provided by investment banks and superannuation funds. Can look at it the other way too, I’m a minority share holder in lots of businesses through my super portfolio. Our governments over time have sold off our utilities to overseas owners and investment funds and the cost of regaining ownership is now prohibitive. We have all seen many smaller businesses fall aside at the hands of the major conglomerates and internationals. As an example look at the hardware industry and the major players, in SA 25 years ago we had Lloyds, BBC, Stratco, Mitre 10, United Hardware, Banner, Haselgroves, Home and Thrifty Link plus a couple of specialist Tool Stores in Flintware and EPTS, let alone a fleet of engineering supplies businesses. Now we have Bunnings who have swallowed up Lloyds, BBC and EPTS who bought Flintware and became Adelaide Tools, now owned by Bunnings and Trading as TKD. United was sold to Danks Group who owned Home and Thrifty Link, which was then bought by Mitre 10/ Metcash.
Even Total Tools is now part owned by Mitre 10\ Metcash.
The strong keep getting stronger and our ACCC is a toothless dog when it comes to business takeovers and protecting the consumer.

 

[Mackka]

Prior to Metcash ( In NSW) Mitre was Himaco which was the Management of all stores as Mitre 10 was a member group/buying group which also had True Value Hardware as part of the group. Home Hardware was part of the Danks Group. Mackka

 

[user 4386]

The way I see it is, we don't actually own the gas or coal. The government gets royalties, but the owners can sell the product to whomever they want and in the case of gas, it is European clients due to the war in Ukraine. I stand to be corrected. Mackka

We own the POTENTIAL resource. Whoever develops it (with our permission) owns it.

 

[user 4386]

Sign of the times, very few people with the wealth to own major businesses on their own in Oz or globally without the funds provided by investment banks and superannuation funds. Can look at it the other way too, I’m a minority share holder in lots of businesses through my super portfolio. Our governments over time have sold off our utilities to overseas owners and investment funds and the cost of regaining ownership is now prohibitive. We have all seen many smaller businesses fall aside at the hands of the major conglomerates and internationals. As an example look at the hardware industry and the major players, in SA 25 years ago we had Lloyds, BBC, Stratco, Mitre 10, United Hardware, Banner, Haselgroves, Home and Thrifty Link plus a couple of specialist Tool Stores in Flintware and EPTS, let alone a fleet of engineering supplies businesses. Now we have Bunnings who have swallowed up Lloyds, BBC and EPTS who bought Flintware and became Adelaide Tools, now owned by Bunnings and Trading as TKD. United was sold to Daniis who owned Home and Thrifty Link, which was then bought by Mitre 10/ Metcash.
Even Total Tools is now part owned by Mitre 10\ Metcash.
The strong keep getting stronger and our ACCC is a toothless dog when it comes to business takeovers and protecting the consumer.

Yes, we simply lack the capital. I think to be fair when we look back, the new owners in many cases have done the bulk of present development - they are no longer the small companies that we remember.

There are few exceptions (Telstra and some road toll companies come to mind).

 

[user 4386]

One thing as important as company ownership is patent ownership. Patent ownership means royalties for the patent holder. Australia ranks highly for inventions (many CSIRO, that got a pittance for Wifi):

Wifi
Rotary clothes hoist
Saltwater pool chlorination
Atomic absorption spectroscopy (AAS)
First anti-flu vaccine
First anti-cancer vaccine
Gene shears
Aircraft black box
Penicillin
Spray-on skin
Heart pacemaker
Cochlear ear implant
Ultrasound scanner
Plastic spectacle lenses
Google Maps platform
Permanent crease clothing
Aeroguard (for protecting livestock)

Many of these were sold early for a small sum and not developed commercially by Australian companies. Sill we should be proud of our successful scientists and inventors in an age when so much science is being rejected in favour of conspiracy theories and back-to-the- past nostalgia (the last which I also suffer from)

 

[user 23515]

AUSTRALIA
https://michaelwest.com.au/mining-l...ate – 9.1% –,the value of exported resources.NORWAY
https://www.themandarin.com.au/9290-policy-sweden-november-26-run/
They have the right idea.

 

[user 4485]

AUSTRALIA
https://michaelwest.com.au/mining-l...ate – 9.1% –,the value of exported resources.NORWAY
https://www.themandarin.com.au/9290-policy-sweden-november-26-run/
They have the right idea.

Gotta laugh at the MichaelWest article that says:

The mining industry regularly combines royalties and taxes but this is misleading when talking about its contribution to Australia.

Then the author uses an equally misleading tactic by using the total export revenue to show the percentage of tax + royalties. It would be much fairer to show as a percentage of profit not total revenue but using total revenue looks far more dramatic.
He fails to recognise the overall contribution to the Australian economy mining makes - wages/salaries, expenditure, other excise/taxes etc. etc.
Yes there are definitely for & against arguments with mining industry tax/royalties (or any other major industries in fact) but I wouldn't be thinking these "independent" journalists have no bias or agenda to push.
Not sure about Norway's system? It seems one industry is funding an entire countries pension system - is that fair? Does Norway rely on taxes/royalties for infrastructure like we do in Australia? They are a small country with a small population so I'd assume not near as much as we do so I'd be wary whether a scheme like that would work as well here?

 

[user 23515]

https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Lar...-21-income-year/?anchor=Highlights#HighlightsMore light reading to confuse the matter.

Not sure about Norway's system? It seems one industry is funding an entire countries pension system - is that fair?

If the money is heading overseas anyway, my position would be to push the Aust share to just under the point where these companies will pull out.
I could as, is it the industry funding their pension system or the resources that are owned by the people?
So we might need to agree to disagree on that.

Regarding journalists, bias and factual info. Probably not much we can quote that is beyond reproach.

I am off to scrape and yabbie pump some more underwater crevices. I won't feel guilty about the obscene profits I make from maybe 0.5g (if I am lucky) for a half day as I pay far more tax already than a big miner. Mid 30s here today so I am sure I will fall in a few times.

 

[user 4386]

Gotta laugh at the MichaelWest article that says:

Then the author uses an equally misleading tactic by using the total export revenue to show the percentage of tax + royalties. It would be much fairer to show as a percentage of profit not total revenue but using total revenue looks far more dramatic.
He fails to recognise the overall contribution to the Australian economy mining makes - wages/salaries, expenditure, other excise/taxes etc. etc.
Yes there are definitely for & against arguments with mining industry tax/royalties (or any other major industries in fact) but I wouldn't be thinking these "independent" journalists have no bias or agenda to push.
Not sure about Norway's system? It seems one industry is funding an entire countries pension system - is that fair? Does Norway rely on taxes/royalties for infrastructure like we do in Australia? They are a small country with a small population so I'd assume not near as much as we do so I'd be wary whether a scheme like that would work as well here?

Taxes are of course imposed on profit, royalties are imposed on tonnes mined before profit, so I'm not sure how you combine them.
Norway has a population only 50% greater than Sydney from memory. It has largely nationalized its "mineral" industry (i.e. minerals and energy) which is almost entirely oil and offshore and therefore all under their Federal control. In Australia most of our mineral industry is onshore and under the control of whatever state it falls in, not under Federal government control (and you would have to change our constitution to change that - fat chance WA or Qld would agree!. As for looking after the environment. Norway has been pegging the Arctic for future oil exploration, to take advantage of melting sea ice making exploration easier - but I guess that means it is not going to get rid of hydrocarbons soon. "The industry plays a vital role in the Norwegian economy and the financing of the Norwegian welfare state. The oil and gas sector is Norway's largest measured in terms of value added, government revenues, investments and export value". Without oil they have? Fish.

HOWEVER, I think they have shown common sense in not blowing their oil windfall, but instead investing it in a future fund for when oil runs out.

 

[user 4386]

https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Lar...-21-income-year/?anchor=Highlights#HighlightsMore light reading to confuse the matter.


If the money is heading overseas anyway, my position would be to push the Aust share to just under the point where these companies will pull out.
I could as, is it the industry funding their pension system or the resources that are owned by the people?
So we might need to agree to disagree on that.

Regarding journalists, bias and factual info. Probably not much we can quote that is beyond reproach.

I am off to scrape and yabbie pump some more underwater crevices. I won't feel guilty about the obscene profits I make from maybe 0.5g (if I am lucky) for a half day as I pay far more tax already than a big miner. Mid 30s here today so I am sure I will fall in a few times.

"my position would be to push the Aust share to just under the point where these companies will pull out" The problem is that they would pull out when they can make more elsewhere, NOT simply when they cannot make a profit here anymore. We compete with countries like South Africa and Brazil - companies will pull out if they can simply make more there, not when they cannot make money here, so it only requires a small increase in costs here to make them pull out.. And our export income is 60% from minerals and energy (85% under covid), three times our agricultural income. What else do we get money from? Tourists and foreign students (woops, wasn't that before covid)?

"the resources that are owned by the people" Yep, I own the resource of a nice four wheel drive - but if no one provides me with petrol it does not do me much good sitting in my driveway. They are certainly our minerals, but they are not worth a cent to us sitting in the ground, and we certainly have never had the money to mine and process them ourselves (not even a small fraction of them) - which is why we have required investment by foreign companies.

Life wasn't meant to be easy.....