Victoria - Which Law Wins?

[Deepseeker]

Ok, Ive been wondering about this for the past few days, and looking at it from all different angles.

As mentioned in an earlier post in the relic section of the forum, I found an old miners pick-head last weekend near Dunolly in Vic.
It had obviously broken on one side of the hole at some time and departed from the handle, and had been in the ground ever since for the last 150 years or so (it was obviously the real deal, looking hand forged and of a style use by the Old timers, in an area rushed in the mid to late 1800s). Unfortunately I broke the other side trying to get it out of the hole (it was around 700mm down, was quite long and was laying flat across the bottom of the hole).

After I overcame the initial disappointment of it not being a big gold nugget, I marveled at it for a while and then thought of what to do with it?
Firstly, I thought of it as junk, and thought I should take it home and bin it like other rubbish. Then, I thought I couldnt do that as it would be a shame to just throw away such a beautifully made piece of our mining history. But, having said that, I didnt want it (I can hear Mrs Deepseeker now Whaddaya want that rusty old thing for!!?? Youre not bringing it in here!!!!).

So, my next thought was that I should bury it back where I found it as I fill in the hole. But then, I thought from the traditional Land owners perspective (the Dja Dja Warrung people) I would probably just be putting White fellas junk back in their land again.

I ended up placing it on top of a rock and just leaving it there, not knowing what I should actually do with it. And wondering, have I now littered State Forest by leaving junk on the surface? One thing I do know, it's a pick head. I've found one before, and I'm sure among all of us we have probably found hundreds. But it could just as easily be any other type of historical item.

Is it rubbish? A Heritage Item? Or what.....? :|

Do I own it because I found it? Can I decide to throw it away? Must I return it to the ground from where I found it, or give it to some government department etc., to decide if it has any type of heritage value?

Which laws take precedence here? Laws pertaining to white cultural heritage, Native cultural heritage, Littering laws, or what?

 

[RM Outback]

It's now your rightful possession after all you have paid for your Miner's Right :Y: So let's not complicate things further than they already are, fair question though. Given you are now the rightful owner it is entirely up to you what you do with it so long as it is lawful. Leaving it on a stump, rock or the ground isn't the right thing to do in my opinion if you don't want it you can either bin it or offer it to a local historical society /museum on the other hand if you want it you could clean it up. Wally69 did a great restoration of an old pick head a few years ago I'm pretty sure if you do a search (I'm a bit tired and don't feel like searching right now :zzz you'll work out what you want to do with it.

Which law wins, the laws that you paid for, the ones that govern your Miner's Right :Y: :beer:

 

[deepblue]

Not wishing to start a heated debate but the rules are as follows.
The Miners Right allows the holder to search for, and take possession of, any mineral located on many areas of public land, or, on private land with the landholder's prior consent.
The finder of historic artefacts or relics has no rights of ownership in Victoria unless they are also the land owner. Objects found in national and state parks and other reserves are the property of the relevant Government.
See the web link for a information with regard to these articles.
https://earthresources.vic.gov.au/l...ational-fossicking/rules-and-responsibilities

cheers db

 

[RM Outback]

Not wishing to start a heated debate but the rules are as follows.
The Miners Right allows the holder to search for, and take possession of, any mineral located on many areas of public land, or, on private land with the landholder's prior consent.
The finder of historic artefacts or relics has no rights of ownership in Victoria unless they are also the land owner. Objects found in national and state parks and other reserves are the property of the relevant Government.
See the web link for a information with regard to these articles.
https://earthresources.vic.gov.au/l...ational-fossicking/rules-and-responsibilities

cheers db

Wow so all coins and relics are the property of the state :|

 

[HarryHoudini]

yes anything over 50 years old is classed as a relic. Under state law we have to leave it i dont agree and i dont see it as a workable law unless they put on loads of people for compliance
And really a coke can is a relic really!

cheers hh

 

[madtuna]

Ridiculous! Imagine if they started to enforce it, they'd have a field day chasing down the stuff posted in the finds threads on here.

 

[Deepseeker]

Thanks for your input everyone. I guess if nothing else, this highlights the unclear nature of all of these various laws, to the point where it comes down to ones own values and interpretation. Surely, one would think common sense must prevail? Unfortunately, as is often the case in a court of law, common sense doesn't have much to do with it. It's interesting though as Deepblue says, our Miners Right (in Victoria anyway) allows us to keep the mineral wealth that we find. It's quite specific about that.
But then, When a pick is no longer a functioning pick, is it not just a lump of rusting mineral? I don't wish to heat things in the forum either, rather I just wish to highlight the broad (and quite often ridiculous) array of legislation that gets in the way of getting out and looking for some gold, and potentially helping to clean up traditional lands with regards to the rubbish that has been left there over the decades and centuries. If H.H's more than fifty years old law applies with regards to relics, then as RM says, does that then apply to all the old coins we find? Then what about all the early musket balls, Shot gun cartridge ends, and indeed pre-1970's car bodies we find?
It's a veritable minefield of potential Convictions, Litigation, Fines and Confiscation when you think about it.

 

[RM Outback]

Lucky I just read the forum and don't get to find much if anything. Madtuna is spot on its ridiculous :N:

 

[Booney]

I think common sense should be used here ,if I find an old timers broken pick its old timers junk or rubbish and should be taken home and or binned . Ive got a box full of old picks and chisels . Its only going to be a problem if something
Seriously valuable turns up like a Viking hoard or the Oak island treasure or the tooth fairys stash of dollar coins . Then you are supposed to leave it in the ground and notify the relevant authorities. Or use common sence .

 

[Ded Driver]

I think you're very right there Booney.
let common sense prevail
An old rusted pick axe, shovel, hammer or whatever doesnt really constitute an archeological treassure, especially if its a solo item.
.
But if you dig up Ned Kelly's hoard then that would be different. :gemstone: :goldnugget: :money:

 

[Goldtarget]

Good questions, great answers.

Its all a minefield pardon the pun. Neighbour brought a property adjacent from mine only to be shut down on developing it.

The council wouldnt allow the trees to be felled (although the were pure regrowth) without a permit, yet ask for a bushfire levy in the rates, and promptly asked him by letter to reduce his fire risk(! )

Then he found he couldnt cover in the old diggers holes as they held "Significant historical value" appearing on a heritage registry, but his public liability insurance was made to be way overs due to them.

All in all it just depends on where in the ladder someone can tell you what you can and cant do.

So back to the OP question, its a relic, either bury it, or turn it over to the letter of the law, but I personally wouldnt be too concerned, think about it hard enough and you realise what a joke one action is legally.

You started by digging up a relic, then by leaving there littered the bush.

But then again under common law if the goods are disposed of and the original owner cannot be located, then you can keep it. The means by which you found it are irrelevant.

So basically if your not on trial or presented with a fine to pay id say whatever you chose to do with it is fine. In the end if it was never recovered, noone would have been the wiser it ever existed.

Personally I'd have taken it home and hung in the shed, then contacted that particular local historical society and asked if they wanted a donation.

 

[Deepseeker]

Yep you've pretty much summed up the stupidity of it all OldGT. Between the Heritage Council, the Local Shire, State Government, and Federal Government, and all of their various agencies, the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing, and sometimes even their own laws contradict each other.

At my last house we had a serious Feral Cat & Fox problem. We were only on a couple of acres, but the surrounding properties were 10 and 20 acre properties, and across the road was a 600 acre nature conservation reserve. I started trapping the cats and the council would come and take them away, euthanase the ferals, and try to locate the owners of the chipped domestic ones, which were only a few out of the 30 something that I caught in just a few years.

Foxes were a different kettle of fish. The local shire said that it wasn't their problem, as they only dealt with domestic animals (apparently a Feral cat, an introduced species and an animal that has never seen the inside of a house in most cases, just like a fox, is classed as a domestic animal). So, they referred me to the DPI who suggested that I shoot the foxes. The state government however requires that I have a gun license and a registered firearm (of which i have neither), but even if I did it's not suitable and probably also not allowable to shoot on a 2 acre property with houses within range on all four sides. So, the DPI told me to poison them, which isn't an option as at that time I had two young children, there were young kids in neighboring properties, and the neighbors had dogs that I occasionally caught in my homemade humane trap and released with a "Please keep your dog within your property" note.

So I told him I had no alternative but to drown them in my dam (which, sadly is what I ended up doing every time I caught one). "Oh but it MUST be humane!" replied Mr DPI. "Are you Kidding" I asked? "Poisoning is humane?" From my understanding from anyone I've ever heard of whose dog has taken a bait, poisoning can be a slow, cruel, and painfull death. So, apparently laws say I can't drown an animal in under a minute as it's cruel, however I can legally watch it slowly die in pain from poison......

I did not enjoy drowing those vulpine bastards one little bit, but neither did I enjoy seeing my chickens ripped to pieces, including the remnants of my neighbors 10 chooks that he lost in one night alone, all ripped to pieces and not one eaten. I hate being turned into a law-breaker. Including I might add, Highjacking my own thread and going off topic to make a point