Public meeting on the QLD gemfields today.

[Lefty]

Is anyone here going to be attending? It would be good if they could video it and upload it to the web.

The new native title agreement is going through and lucky me, I get to be among the first guinea pigs to see how things go for new claim applicants and those renewing existing claims and leases

Our family worked claims on the field for years and while the application process was never quick I'm told, getting approval to dig a few small holes in a small patch of dirt the size of a backyard seems to be beyond belief. It has taken a year of my time and over a grand of our money so far. Yesterday I received a letter from the department appearing to state that I need to make myself available in the next few weeks to engage in negotiations with legal representitives of the native title claimants to work out how much "compensation" I apparently owe them.

Interestingly, the native title tribunal has granted title to not one but two totally different mobs who both say that it's their land - I'm not sure that would be legally possible for anyone else. So I expect I will be hit for compensation not once but twice. How many next time? Three, four, five? Is there any limit to the number who can hop on the legal gravy train in the long term?

The notion that Joe Average can negotiate a fair outcome against a team of trained lawyers - whose commissions I assume are paid for with public money taken from my pocket in the first place - is ludicrous and amounts to saying that throwing a 12-year old in the ring with Mike Tyson would be a fair fight. My understanding was that the department was going to negotiate on behalf of small applicants but the story seems to change depending on which project officer I talk to.

I have come to regret my decision to go back to digging sapphires on a small claim - the process seems to have spiralled beyond anything sane and reasonable. It may transpire that after so much time and money, I'm ultimately forced to walk away.

 

[Heatho]

Sounds like a nightmare.

Good luck with it mate.

 

[Lefty]

Thanks Heatho.

I just spoke to the native title project officer - she thinks that it will take at least 6 months after negotiations begin to reach a resolution. Who knows what sort of money they will be wanting to shake me down for.

This is just complete f@#&ing idiocy! Luckily for those who are renewing existing claims and leases, they are allowed to keep working the claim as normal in the interim - but I'm not. I'm restricted to being basically a handminer/fossicker until this all goes through, which is something I could go and do anyway for next to zero cost and bother.

I have to think seriously about whether or not this is even worth it.

 

[Goldtarget]

I love how (not just mining etc) there's always someone wanting a piece of the pie without the work. Good luck mate

 

[Lefty]

Thanks Goldtarget. It really makes my blood boil - I was a bit short on the phone with the native title project officer.....but I know it isn't her fault, she just works there.

You have to suspect that the outcome of this ******** will be that when everyone realizes just ludicrously onerous the process of pegging a new claim is, the numbers of new applicants will likely slow to a trickle. So the amount of fresh, new money flowing in will also slow to a trickle. At which point I imagine that the law firms behind this will investigate legal avenues to squeeze existing claim and lease holders harder, as well as try and have the cost of a fossickers permit bumped up so they can skim the cream off the top.

 

[Lefty]

Just spoke to the Queensland Sapphire Miners Association - I will be joining up and having them represent me in the negotiations.

What the department hasn't made clear is that even if you can successfully negotiate yourself, it will still cost you thousands of dollars in fees for legal drafting etc. Joe Bloggs like me just doesn't have that kind of dough lying around and to put that amount into a tiny patch of dirt that may or may not ever produce anything worthwhile would be frankly stupid even if I could afford it.

I still doubt I will be able to make a start before next years digging season but at least I feel a bit better.

 

[Paydirt]

Is the amount of 'sit down money' you have to pay based on volume of dirt moved or profits? And if its on profits is it possible to backhand the accountant instead of the gov agency?

 

[Lefty]

I'm not too sure Paydirt - much of this stuff isn't clear and I've been told one thing by one departmental official, only to be told the opposite by another.

When averaged out over the life of the claim, the amount of money won't be huge - it couldn't be, the typical small claim holder is at the opposite end of the mining income spectrum (or any income spectrum) to Gina Reinhart and if it was too much the communities that make up the field would simply collapse and dissapear I imagine.

The main issue for me is the time frame. This is where I've unwittingly walked into a trap. Those who are simply renewing an existing claim or lease or buying one are allowed to continue mining in the interim. But as a new applicant applying for a brand new claim on a piece of previously un-pegged dirt (inside a designated area specifically set aside for that very purpose by government quite some time ago mind you), I am not allowed to actually start work until this is all wrapped up. If you're planning to spend billions of dollars opening a vast open-cut coal or iron ore mine then you can imagine a lead time of several years before work commences - but the area we're talking about here would fit inside a few mining dragline scoops.

So my experience so far is that while it never happened quickly - six months seemed to be about the previous average - the process for pegging a brand new small claim is now so insanely drawn-out that new claims are basically an un-viable proposition for all but the most die-hard or those with another pre-existing claim they can work in the meantime.

As I mentioned previously, I am allowed to dig on it with pick and shovel like a fossicker - but I could do that anyway for much less stress and almost zero cost. The machines are off limits for however long this rubbish takes to conclude.

We could have bought an existing claim (at not insignificant cost though) but opted instead for virgin ground. That was a mistake and I can't see too many new claims being pegged in the future if they all have to go through what I've been going through for the past year and will probably have to go through for up to another year yet.

I reckon there's big money to be made on the gemfields - but it's not in precious stones, it's in lawyers fees.

 

[loamer]

Lefty - what you are facing is a pure, unadulterated load of balls!!! I really feel for you mate - have a crack and you get stooged along the way. Bloody bureaucracy - I see this down here as well. What I think it all means is that if it is made all too hard, we will just give up applying - which the majority of us have. The bond for 'land remediation' kills it every time. They don't like your remediation? bang - there goes the bond. That's why some of have turned to 'dam building' on private property. Lot of bloody dams being dug on the tops of hills my friend!!!

 

[Lefty]

Exactly loamer! It's sheer madness!

The rules we have to try and abide by are drafted up by people who know nothing about digging sapphires in the central QLD bush or digging gold on the Victorian fields and who care even less. The way it's going at the moment, by the time I'm allowed to start serious work it'll be too late, I'll already be in a nursing home .

 

[Kingsolomon]

Guess your screwed unless your married to someone in that department ... Thought about getting an aboriginal wife? Have to be a local one .. They consider having a few wives kosher.. Just a thought . Heard two people ( if you can call them that ... Lawyers) talking about how they enjoy developing new laws, had trouble eating. Had desert elsewhere ...

 

[Lefty]

Guess your screwed unless your married to someone in that department ... Thought about getting an aboriginal wife? Have to be a local one .. They consider having a few wives kosher.. Just a thought . Heard two people ( if you can call them that ... Lawyers) talking about how they enjoy developing new laws, had trouble eating. Had desert elsewhere ...

Yeah it sucks! I'll weather it - only other choice would be to walk away - but it just ***** me.

I think a lack of any ethics is probably a prerequisite for a lot of lawyers jobs

 

[Heatho]

Guess your screwed unless your married to someone in that department ... Thought about getting an aboriginal wife? Have to be a local one .. They consider having a few wives kosher.. Just a thought . Heard two people ( if you can call them that ... Lawyers) talking about how they enjoy developing new laws, had trouble eating. Had desert elsewhere ...

Yeah it sucks! I'll weather it - only other choice would be to walk away - but it just ***** me.

I think a lack of any ethics is probably a prerequisite for a lot of lawyers jobs

Most politicians are lawyers too.......

 

[XIV]

Guess your screwed unless your married to someone in that department ... Thought about getting an aboriginal wife? Have to be a local one .. They consider having a few wives kosher.. Just a thought . Heard two people ( if you can call them that ... Lawyers) talking about how they enjoy developing new laws, had trouble eating. Had desert elsewhere ...

Yeah it sucks! I'll weather it - only other choice would be to walk away - but it just ***** me.

I think a lack of any ethics is probably a prerequisite for a lot of lawyers jobs

Most politicians are lawyers too.......

Well that explains everything
We will be able to do nothing very soon
The old saying work, rest and play
Will soon be work, work and sleep

 

[gcause]

Lefty I know it pains you but it might be a case of cutting your losses and buying an existing claim could work out a lot less expensive and less stressful for you in the long run. After all why line someone else's pockets (lawyers, etc) when you could be lining your own.

It could run another year or more pegging out is just the start (Native Title, Environmental Protection, Work plans, Work place health and safety, etc) and are you really prepared to loose 2 or possibly 3 digging seasons for the sake of some virgin ground that may or may not pay off?

At least with buying an existing claim all that hard work is behind you, you can get a good idea up front if it is going to pay and you can then just focus on processing the dirt.

Just food for thought and I really do hope it all works out well for you in the end.

 

[Lefty]

Thing is gcause, they already have over a year of my time and plenty of my dough as well - if I cut and run now I would just be handing it over to them for nothing anyway.

We actually did look at buying an existing claim before we pegged but after over six months of the bloke dicking us around, we gave that idea a miss and decided to peg - only to run smack-bang into this ****.

So we can say that the past 2 years of attempting to set up a sapphire claim hasn't exactly gone smoothly

But I won't let it get me down - like I said, I can still hand-mine the claims legally in the interim and no one else can dig on the pegged area without my permission. I will shortly be a member of the QSMA and they will be negotiating on behalf of their collective membership, it won't cost me $6000 in legal fees.

 

[boobook]

Bloke, I can really feel for you.

Negotiating an ILUA (indigenous land use agreement) is a bloody minefield then if you have machinery OH&S gets themselves involved.
"Where's your used oil disposal certificate?" "Your camp waste is causing ground contamination", "Your excavator is unsafe" (seat worn out) etc.
Add to that increased Public Liability costs, it goes on without end.

Sixteen years of mining boulder opal was enough for us, and like every other gem, bloody synthetics will end up beating you (except parti's in your case)
mike

 

[jimnyjerry]

Lefty sorry to read that the fat bureaucats and trilobites are still stuffing you around for at least another 6 months. Hope the Queensland Sapphire Miners Association can help to quickly resolve the situation.

 

[blayke]

lefty have a chat to the chairman of the QSMA in Sapphire, i believe its Garnet Ross still, i know him personally and he is just as pissed off about it as you.he may have some more info for you to use somehow...can only try

good luck with it all

 

[Lefty]

Bloke, I can really feel for you.
Negotiating an ILUA (indigenous land use agreement) is a bloody minefield then if you have machinery OH&S gets themselves involved.
"Where's your used oil disposal certificate?" "Your camp waste is causing ground contamination", "Your excavator is unsafe" (seat worn out) etc.
Add to that increased Public Liability costs, it goes on without end.
Sixteen years of mining boulder opal was enough for us, and like every other gem, bloody synthetics will end up beating you (except parti's in your case) sad
mike

I reckon they're going to end up killing it ****ook. I thought that what I had to go through with just the mines department alone was bad enough but this stuff is outrageous. I won't be surprised if I'm one of the last of those who don't actually live on the field to peg a small miners claim - the extrordinary run-around and the seeming ever-growing numbers of hands grasping at your pocket as though you had the money and resources of Gina Reinhart renders it unviable.

Lefty sorry to read that the fat bureaucats and trilobites are still stuffing you around for at least another 6 months. Hope the Queensland Sapphire Miners Association can help to quickly resolve the situation.

Yep, I wouldn't bother even trying to peg a claim if you haven't already Jimnyjerry - if you live in Queensland and you like chasing sapphires, just go and dig as a fossicker. Tomahawk creek is a nice place for those who like to get away from it all in a bush setting.

lefty have a chat to the chairman of the QSMA in Sapphire, i believe its Garnet Ross still, i know him personally and he is just as pissed off about it as you.he may have some more info for you to use somehow...can only try
good luck with it all

I might do that blayke. I sent the membership form and right to negotiate consent off yesterday. I spoke on the phone to the treasurer on Tuesday, can't recall her name but she said that she and her husband were in the same boat, pegging 2 new claims. I guess that they already have a couple of pre-existing ones they can work in the meantime though.