NSW Highbanking - what is the current state of play?

From
http://www.water.nsw.gov.au/Water-l...er-supply-work-and-use-approvals/default.aspx

"A water use approval is required to use water on land for all purposes except when exercising basic landholder rights.
You also need approval to construct and use all water supply works to:
extract water from a river (eg via a pump), unless you are taking water under a basic landholder right"

Since we are not extracting water from a creek/river we don't need a permit.
I cannot find a law saying that using a pump to move water out of a supply and directly back into the supply is illegal.

"Power-operated equipment cannot be used on land or in waters for surface disturbance, excavation or
processing. Power operated equipment includes mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, battery and
electrical equipment or machinery."

A highbanker is a non Power operated device.
If i pour water into it with a bucket it will work perfectly. It is a gravity trap- just like a gold pan.
My hose from my pump is pouring water into my non power operated device- which is not illegal.
happy days

So do we need a water use permit??? Since we are using water

This has been brought up many times in the past, because of confusing wording.
It boils down to what you think the rules say(not what do you want them to say), and if asked to defend your decision can you?
I use a pump with my highbanker and am willing to to go to court if needed (not saying i would win, but i am willing to fight for what i believe is right). Because my understanding of the rules is:
1) The mechanical water pump is in no way being used for excavation or processing(though it is part of a process for transporting water to the highbanker. The pump itself does not process material, just moves water to the spot i want to work.) as i dig with shovel and pick and process dirt with the highbanker (aided by water).
2) Under the water management Act (or whatever its name) we are lawfully able to use a pump for prospecting/fossicking.

Digginholes said:

So do we need a water use permit??? Since we are using water

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You don't need a water use permit - my post above is an extract from WATER MANAGEMENT (GENERAL) REGULATION 2011 & the clause is an exemption to hold an access licence (or permit) for prospecting & fossicking unless of course you plan on using more than 3 megs of water in any water year.

Hi All
Do you guy's in NSW see officers policing this stuff in the bush????

Can you NSW prospectors answer this - Are you gaining a mechanical advantage with your pump suppling water to your "Highbanker" spray bar???

Don't get me wrong here folks I reckon these "Laws" are crap & restrictive, but at least your Laws in NSW are written a bit clearer than QLD.

To my way of thinking the way the rules are written NSW permits you to move water to the area you intend to dig & not use it to proccess.
Like I said earlier & in another post I got the info from 2 seperate mining Wardens in my area that the equipment I thought was legal was in fact not, I would suggest if you think it is any shade of grey give your mining warden a call.
cheers
Lee

Here's my rational, logical answer. I found a few old Gem and Treasure magazines from 2002 tonight. I was reading the article about the Orange Lapidary Club out high banking with about 20 attendees. Its been going on for a lot longer than that obviously.

I would think that if High banker was illegal in NSW the word Highbanking/er would be mentioned in the legislation as a no, no?

My two bobs worth.

rc62burke said:

Hi All
Do you guy's in NSW see officers policing this stuff in the bush????

Can you NSW prospectors answer this - Are you gaining a mechanical advantage with your pump suppling water to your "Highbanker" spray bar???

Don't get me wrong here folks I reckon these "Laws" are crap & restrictive, but at least your Laws in NSW are written a bit clearer than QLD.

To my way of thinking the way the rules are written NSW permits you to move water to the area you intend to dig & not use it to proccess.
Like I said earlier & in another post I got the info from 2 seperate mining Wardens in my area that the equipment I thought was legal was in fact not, I would suggest if you think it is any shade of grey give your mining warden a call.
cheers
Lee

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Do you guy's in NSW see officers policing this stuff in the bush?
I haven't or have never heard of any officer's policing this stuff in the NSW bush? The Mining Wardens in NSW would most likely have their hands full with "proper" mining issues not fossicking?
Have tried searching for any records of anyone being prosecuted etc. in NSW for using one & came up with nothing.

Can you NSW prospectors answer this - Are you gaining a mechanical advantage with your pump suppling water to your "Highbanker" spray bar?
Your talking about gaining mechanical advantage not being mechanically powered as per NSW legislation. You also gain mechanical advantage by using shovels, picks, screwdrivers, levers etc. etc. etc. Mechanically powered is a completely different thing.

The rules aren't written that clearly but if you use common sense, in NSW anyway, I think they would leave you alone especially if you are seen to be doing the right thing like backfilling holes, not causing too much stream turbidity etc. The only areas I wouldn't recommend highbanking in are those signposted saying not to or where the landowner/manager/leasee etc. have said yes you can fossick here but no using a highbanker.

rc62burke said:

Hi All
Do you guy's in NSW see officers policing this stuff in the bush????

Can you NSW prospectors answer this - Are you gaining a mechanical advantage with your pump suppling water to your "Highbanker" spray bar???

Don't get me wrong here folks I reckon these "Laws" are crap & restrictive, but at least your Laws in NSW are written a bit clearer than QLD.

To my way of thinking the way the rules are written NSW permits you to move water to the area you intend to dig & not use it to proccess.
Like I said earlier & in another post I got the info from 2 seperate mining Wardens in my area that the equipment I thought was legal was in fact not, I would suggest if you think it is any shade of grey give your mining warden a call.
cheers
Lee

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G'day Lee, i called the DPI early on to try and clarify things, which did not happen. The round about message i got was that highbanking was legal but the DPI's stance was that it was illegal(though he referred to it as sluicing and even mentioned river sluices due to turbidity).
I asked a few questions as to how it was illegal as highbankers generally do not run straight back into waterways and i was not answered. He had no response about pumps being used to process and was not even aware of the water management act.
I got to the point where i honestly felt he had no idea of the rules let alone the wording.
I also asked why no one was ever arrested or charged if they were illegal as you can see them at any public fossicking area. He told me they did not have enough people to police it. I offered him a chance to charge me, giving him a place and a variety of dates where i would be digging, he told me it was out of his district.

To my way of thinking the way the rules are written NSW permits you to move water to the area you intend to dig & not use it to proccess.

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But under that logic you could not even use the water to pan, as you are still using the water to aid in processing, why would you move water to an area if you cant use it? The NSW water management act allows us to pump water for the legal act of fossicking, with no restrictions on how it is used for that persuit.

Are you gaining a mechanical advantage with your pump suppling water to your "Highbanker" spray bar???

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Lee you may very well gain a mechanical advantage, but that still does not make the highbanker powered by mechanical means. Nothing powers a highbanker, they are static as are the spraybars.

Hi Shivan

"But under that logic you could not even use the water to pan, as you are still using the water to aid in processing, why would you move water to an area if you cant use it? The NSW water management act allows us to pump water for the legal act of fossicking, with no restrictions on how it is used for that persuit."

My blue I should have said "Pumped to a holding tub & then used for processing eg gravity flow to a sluice or by bucket"

Mbasko
"Your talking about gaining mechanical advantage not being mechanically powered as per NSW legislation. You also gain mechanical advantage by using shovels, picks, screwdrivers, levers etc. etc. etc. Mechanically powered is a completely different thing"

Mate I am interested to here & see how you guy's interpret the REG's, the tools you mention above are all hand tools no argument there & any hand tool will give you a mechanical advantage!!

To me it is clear that when you set up your highbanker & connect a hose to a pump the setup becomes one unit, the banker won't run without the pump (I know you can use a bucket But where not talking about "Bucket Bankers").

Like I said it's all crap, would I stop using the said equipment? NO WAY!!!
Enough from me on this.
cheers
Lee

The way I see it is there will be someone charged at some point.

Good point but,
You are not using the pump to extract your material.
Also with a high banker you are not set up in the middle of the creek/water. Remember muddy water.
All you are doing is imitating the creek/river to extract minerals.

To sum up it is OK to use a banker with a pump.
Until someone really does something wrong then they will ban water pumps.

rc62burke said:

Tathradj said:

OK,

As quoted,
What techniques cannot be used for fossicking ?

Neither explosives nor dredges can be used in fossicking.
Power-operated equipment cannot be used on land or in waters for surface disturbance, excavation or
processing. Power operated equipment includes mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, battery and
electrical equipment or machinery.

Way that I understand this is you cannot use any form of mechanical machine to excavate material for processing.
The pump under the mining/water guidelines is covered for a certain amount of water that can be used.

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Hi All
Well to me it looks like NSW "Prospectors" are in a very similar position to us in QLD

Tathradj from your Quote, take note of the 2 area's I have bolded.
1st says - surface disturbance, excavation or processing, please note the word OR.
2nd says - mechanical machine to excavate material for processing.

I believe you have made a fundamental mistake that a lot of people make you have read it out of context & substituted for in place of or.
I myself have just realised that what I thought was Legal in QLD was infact not.

The way I read what has been outlined here is that the use of a Highbanker used in conjunction with a PUMP is NOT legal in NSW, to clarify "Without the addition of a pump to impart velocity energy to the water entering the "Highbanker" the highbanker would be useless, the "Pump" being a mechanical device is required to effectively operate your banker. This is quite clearly "Processing" material with the use of a mechanical device.

Welcome to world of "Criminal" small time prospecting.

Disgruntled!!!
Lee

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G'day Lee, in my opinion the more this gets talked about, the easier it is for others to draw their own conclusion. Everyone has slightly different ways of looking at things, which brings up points others may have missed. I am probably a bit closed minded on the subject, but that probably comes from my reasoning. And like i say i could be totally wrong

To me it is clear that when you set up your highbanker & connect a hose to a pump the setup becomes one unit, the banker won't run without the pump (I know you can use a bucket But where not talking about "Bucket Bankers").

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But all highbankers should work with bucketed water, they would not be anywhere near as efficient or effective but they still work, after all a highbaker is just a sluice with a hopper on top to wash and classify.
What if i did not connect the hose to the highbanker? Say i had a nozzle on the hose and had someone aiming the hose in the top of the hopper? What about pumping water to a small tank/drum then gravity feeding water to the highbanker?
I still think of the pump, hose and highbanker as 3 separate units, that are connected for the purpose of moving water to the highbanker.
So i do not see the water pump as part of processing the material, as the sluice processes the material the pump processes the water. The sluice is operated by water which is delivered by the pump via the hose. That is what i mean by the pump being part of the process but not actually processing material, and the highbaker that process the material not being powered by the pump.

Again this is just my way of trying to make sense of things, hopefully it will never get put to the test.

Might as well ban all sluices and everything with riffles, as it relies upon hydraulic principles.

But.

Pumps are used with no dramas in NSW...so IF everyone keeps their nose clean.
Fill holes, do not leave a mess..pumps will continue to be no dramas.

But

There are the ferals out there that will cut away banks, leave rubbish, unfilled holes.

So....sooner or later, Greenies and nanny state rules will shut down another aspect of our hobby.

Let sleeping dogs lay where they are....if you wake them up they might bite you.

Imadogman said:

Let sleeping dogs lay where they are....if you wake them up they might bite you.

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I somewhat agree but how will that help when a ranger books you with their interpretation of the rules

The other problem is the outlay cost $ to buy a unit that may not be legal regarding the stupid nebulous wording of the present regulations , one must ask what idiots wrote them when considering we pay there salaries !

I think that this will put it all to rest.

7. The holder must not in the course of fossicking:
7.1. Excavate in any way except as outlined in clause 6.1.
7.2. Undercut or damage the bank of any watercourse
7.3. Interfere with the flow of water in any watercourse
7.4. Cause pollution of any watercourse
7.5. Cause significant turbidity in any watercourse
7.6. Use any explosives or equipment or machinery operated by mechanical, hydraulic,
pneumatic or electrical power for digging purposes
7.7. Disturb more than one cubic metre of material during any period of 48 hours
7.8. Damage or remove bush rock (not being a mineral)
7.9. Enter any quarries or gravel pits
7.10. Remove in any 48 hour period more than:
7.10.1. 5 kilograms of minerals (other than gold or gemstones);
7.10.2. 50 grams of gold (or 5 nuggets of 10 grams or greater);
7.10.3. 5 nuggets of gold of 10 gms or greater;
7.10.4. 100 grams of gemstones; or
7.10.5. 10 kg of mineral-bearing material (other than above).

Everyone on this forum is going to do the right thing when it comes to fossicking as we adhere to a code of ethics, self regulate and try our best to abide by the various acts and legislation that govern our activities. I say try our best as they are often so confusing at times and seem to contradict each other in their wording.

However fossicking is a regulated activity controlled by an Act of parliament and governed by a set of regulations under the jurisdiction of the Mines department. The Forestry department controls access to state forest land and materials contained therein.

tathradj has quoted the wording of clause 7 of the conditions of the permit issued by the forestry department under section 45 of the Forestry Act as a means of clarifying this issue. Unfortunately it doesn't.

I make no representation that I have any legal training as a legal professional but I have studied contract law for business. Based on what I know according to that wording and given the word "or" takes precedence over each other in a sentence one way of interpreting this clause is as follows:

- No use of explosives;
- No use of equipment; (might as well go home now if you can't use equipment of any kind)
- No machinery operated by mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic or electrical power for digging purposes;

It is a poorly worded clause that needs to be clarified or removed and replaced with the wording from the actual Mining Regulations 2010.

Now the permit itself is issued under section 45 of the State Forestry Act 2012 which states:

45 Small quantity authorisations

(1916 Act, s 30I)

(1) The Corporation may, otherwise than by the issue of a timber licence, forest products licence or forest materials licence, authorise a person:
(a) to take timber, forest products or forest materials having a value of not more than $1,000 (or such other amount as may be prescribed by the regulations) on or from land within a State forest, other than land set apart as a flora reserve, or
(b) to take timber or forest products having a value of not more than $1,000 (or such other amount as may be prescribed by the regulations) on or from Crown land.
(2) A small quantity authorisation is subject to such conditions as may be imposed by the Corporation or by the regulations.
(3) The authority conferred by a small quantity authorisation is subject to the regulations.
(4) A small quantity authorisation may not be issued in respect of:
(a) land held under a conditional purchase lease, closer settlement lease, group purchase lease, settlement purchase lease or returned soldiers special holding unless the lessee of that land consents to the issue of the authorisation, or
(b) land in respect of which trustees have been appointed for a public purpose unless those trustees consent to the issue of the authorisation.

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Clause 2 and 3 of Section 45 give Forestry the right to set conditions for access to State Forest materials.

Hand tools only is what they are trying to imply by those conditions which seem to be based on someones interpretation and incorrect rewording of the actual fossicking regulations contained in the Mining Act 1992 which is worded as follows:

12 Fossicking

(1) For the purposes of this or any other Act or law, it is declared that fossicking is a lawful activity.
(2) Subsection (1):
(a) does not affect any other Act or law that prohibits, regulates or restricts fossicking or that has the effect of prohibiting, regulating or restricting fossicking and, in particular, does not make fossicking a lawful authority or lawful excuse for the purposes of any such Act or law, and
(b) does not confer on any person a right of entry on to land (other than land prescribed by subsection (2A)) for fossicking purposes.
(2A) For the purposes of subsection (2) (b), the prescribed land is Crown land (within the meaning of the Crown Lands Act 1989):
(a) that is not held under a lease, licence or permissive occupancy under the Crown Lands Act 1989, the Crown Lands (Continued Tenures) Act 1989 or the Western Lands Act 1901, and
(b) that is not under the management or control of a trustee or a public or local authority.
(3) Any publicly owned mineral that is recovered in the course of lawful fossicking becomes the property of the person by whom it is found at the time it is severed from the land on which it is found.
(4) A person must not carry out fossicking on any land the subject of an authority, mineral claim or opal prospecting licence except with the consent of the holder of the authority, claim or licence.
Maximum penalty: 50 penalty units.

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to the carrying out of fossicking on land the subject of an exploration licence if the land is within a fossicking district.
(6) A person must not carry out fossicking on any land that is, or in waters that are, the subject of an approved determination of native title under the Commonwealth Native Title Act to the effect that native title exists, except with the consent of the relevant registered native title body corporate with respect to that native title.
Maximum penalty: 50 penalty units.

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And more so from the Mining Regulations 2010 which is worded as follows:

12 Fossicking

(1) Any soil, rock or other material that is disturbed in the course of work carried out for the purpose of fossicking for minerals must:
(a) be removed and stockpiled separately, and
(b) after completion of the work, be replaced in order to reconstruct the original soil profile.
Maximum penalty: 50 penalty units.

(2) A person must not carry out work that includes any of the following activities for the purpose of fossicking:
(a) the use of any equipment other than hand-held implements on any land or waters that is subject to native title,
(b) the excavation or clearing of any land or waters that is subject to native title,
(c) the use of power-operated equipment for the purpose of surface disturbance, excavation or processing on any land,
(d) the use of explosives on any land,
(e) the damage or removal of any bushrock,
(f) the removal of more than the prescribed amount of material from any land during any single period of 48 hours,
(g) the disturbance of more than 1 cubic metre of any soil, rock or other material during any single period of 48 hours.
Maximum penalty: 50 penalty units.

Note. The language of part of this subclause mirrors the language of part of section 24LA (Low impact future acts) of the Native Title Act 1993 of the Commonwealth. That section refers, in part, to an act (in relation to particular land or waters) that does not consist of, authorise or otherwise involve the excavation or clearing of any of the land or waters or mining (other than fossicking by using hand-held implements).
(3) In this clause:
gemstone means a Group 6 or Group 7 mineral.

Note. Group 6 and Group 7 minerals are listed in Schedule 2.

power-operated equipment means any equipment powered by mechanical or electrical means.

prescribed amount, in relation to material, means:

(a) 10 kilograms of mineral-bearing material (other than the material referred to in paragraphs (b)(e)), or
(b) 5 kilograms of minerals (other than gold or gemstones), or
(c) 50 grams of gold (except where found as nuggets of 10 grams or greater), or
(d) 5 nuggets of 10 grams or greater of gold, or
(e) 100 grams of gemstones.

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Note there is no mention of the words "machinery, hydraulic or pneumatic" in the Mining Act or Mining Regulations as it relates to Fossicking that I have been able to determine. Those words are used only as part of the conditions imposed by the forestry dept and hence they apply only within State Forests across NSW.

Hope this helps clarify this.

Notice that mechanical equipment is not allowed !
Well lets have a look at what the word mechanical actually means :-

Mechanical system, a system that manages power to accomplish a task that involves forces and movement .
And then there is - mechanical energy , the sum of potential energy and kinetic energy. It is the energy associated with the motion and position of an object. Wikipedia

This guy is using mechanical equipment ! not allowed the way the rules are written

No sieves that could be classed as mechanical.

The digger

Right.
I am going to put this to rest.
Final.
No Crap.
Please Read Me...
.
First.
I know that this person said this, That person said that.
Do not believe everything that you read on the internet.
Forum advise can be,,,, Crap.
I know that BUT,
I will not give out this person's name as I promised I would not.
Here we go.
.
After I obtained my permit, I rang and spoke to a person very high up in the chain.
Basically if you are being a dick and doing things very wrong and not showing any respect, You will have your permit torn up and will find out the hard way on not paying attention to a few basic rules.
The rules governing fossicking or Prospecting in a State forest in NSW are written like that for a purpose.
If Native title has been extinguished you CAN use a pump to run your High banker.
You can obtain permission if you want, it's just how you go about it.
Just simply,
Find out if native title either has or not been extinguished in the area you wish to use a pump.
Don't go discharging your banker straight into a creek.
Use a bit of common sense with what you are doing.
And clean up after you have finished.
Simple.

I have a close friend that uses a home made banker up in n.s.w(and it aint small), he usually sets the machine up out of the creek bed and allows the water to partly strain through grass's and if its dry he takes out a sack out of a evaporative air conditioner and allows all the waste to run through the sack before entering back into the water ways, he has decided to do this as an enviromentally friendly way to stop the "MAN" crawling all over his back.
I decided to contact him after reading this post and ask if he has ever been pinched, he replied, "no, been pulled up once, they viewed what i was doing and left a while later, they seemed happy enough" get seen doing the right thing or attempting to do the right thing can go a long way in making a difference to a judgement call being made by the authorities.
Leave holes, disturbed rocks, piles of rocks, all this will get frowned upon wether your banking or panning, use a pump to feed your banker and keep the area neat and tidy and making an attempt to help keep the water ways clear and your probarbly not going to have any real issues.
just do whatever you thinks right.